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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2008 : 18:31:55 [Permalink]
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Interesting arguments Mr. H Humbert.
The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it because of your skeptic nature you will always deny it. So it would be a fruitless battle for me to try and show you guys anything the only thing that I ask is for you guys to try it on yourselves so you come to your own conclusions but coming to conclusions without even testing something is still in scientific terms a theory. Technically it isn't a fact.
I am not lecturing anybody about anything if look at the first post I made was to see if you guys would conduct a test.
All these words like apophenia or pareidolia are just names to describe something. And phenomenons like the plecebo effect are just patches in the scientific universe, they try to explain something but they have no backing on how the power of the mind can influence reality unless someone decides to take a look into the unseen. And I think Occam's razor would back me up on the placebo effect.
"Who do you think knows more about psychics and ESP, you or us?" That depends on how much you have put to the subject reading it. I don't know how much you know because I am not you. But I have read alot of stuff about occult from anything to everything about it.
Anywho in the end I only ask you to try it out if you wish to thats fine if not thats fine as well.
Peace,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 19:03:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it because of your skeptic nature you will always deny it. |
There you go again: being offensive. Really, you should stop. You should also learn what we mean by "skeptic" before you use that word again, too.| ...in scientific terms a theory. Technically it isn't a fact. |
You have just demonstrated very well that you don't know what a scientific theory or fact are. You should stop using those words, as well - and you should certainly not dare to tell other people what's a theory and what's a fact before you learn how to use those words correctly.| "Who do you think knows more about psychics and ESP, you or us?" That depends on how much you have put to the subject reading it. |
What about those of us who have lived it?
And what about you: how much have you read about science and skepticism? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 19:12:54 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it because of your skeptic nature you will always deny it. |
I call this The Evil Skeptic argument. That is, it's our fault if you can't provide evidence that is convincing to us, so why bother trying?
Using that argument, you get to make a claim and blame us for any problems that we might find with the claim because, as you say, “your skeptic nature you will always deny it.” The possibility that there really are problems with a claim is, in that way, never addressed…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 20:18:47 [Permalink]
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nightwolf said:
| The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it |
Yeah, because you don't have any to show. Thats why it is impossible for you to show us any evidence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 23:04:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it because of your skeptic nature you will always deny it. |
And the problem with your mindset is that because you never have your beliefs critically examined, you'll never discover if you are correct or just deluded. See, that's the thing about us skeptics, we are boldly curious. We'd love to go over your claims with a fine-toothed comb. We are honest, fair, and we won't "deny" anything that doesn't merit it. But from the look of things, you'd rather avoid the scrutiny. It's you who are acting close-minded and unwilling to examine the evidence, not us. It's you who would prefer to stick your head in the sand. Oh, well. It's your choice.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/13/2008 23:05:07 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2008 : 23:30:14 [Permalink]
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I've read that article before, but decided to read it again. I just want to say, Kil, that your articles are some of the best skeptic writing on the internet. They were what got me interested in the SFN to begin with. I know that my own short temper and tendency to veer into insult does not often lend itself to changing minds. You, on the other hand, always impress me with your even temper and good humored sensibility. You strike me as the type of skeptic "the other side" would be more inclined to listen to. But even when they don't, you manage to turn their hostility to your innocent questioning into a kind of Charlie Brown pathos, which is itself quite charming. I wish I had half your patience. Thanks, Kil, for everything you do for our little community here. You continue to be an inspiration.
P.S. You should write more! :)
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/13/2008 23:33:49 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 07:55:26 [Permalink]
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| Wow! Thanks Humbert!!! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 12:18:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
Interesting arguments Mr. H Humbert.
"Who do you think knows more about psychics and ESP, you or us?" That depends on how much you have put to the subject reading it. I don't know how much you know because I am not you.
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So your psychic abilities are limited by distance and foreknowledge. If you were in the same room or adjoining rooms could you tell how much H. Humbert knew?
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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emsby
Skeptic Friend
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 14:04:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
The thing with what you call evidence is that its impossible for me to show you any of it because of your skeptic nature you will always deny it. |
You must have used your psychic abilities to look into the future and know how Humbert would react to anything you show him. AMAZING! |
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 17:39:07 [Permalink]
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emsby and moakley mocking someone doesnt really help proving a point all it shows is that your still acting instinctual using hatred or fear to prove a point but in the end all you do is show yourselves.
To the real good points though I have to say I am sorry you guys have showed me something and I do thank you I guess you were right I did have an idea to people who were skeptical. So I thank you for showing something about myself that I had not noticed before. So no more making those claims about not being able to show it to you guys.
Well heres something for you to show it to your self and I will stay away from scientific word is that offends anyone else ;)
Those of you who have meditated before I am curious... what kind of meditation did you do and how long have you guys have done it and with what intent?
Now the only reason I ever stumbled upon this site ironically was that I was doing a search for psipog and found that you guys were making fun of all the people who have done that type of thing... well lets put it it was quite as you guys had put it offensive but interestingly enough the easiest way to prove the paranormal exist is to do a little psychokinesis. And as I had previously "claimed" that everyone is inherently psychic so everyone can do it with practice. Psipog has a lot of good info if you guys are willing to give it a try.
So please explain what you mean by "You should also learn what we mean by 'skeptic'" please enlighten me.
Peace,
Nightwolf
PS. Note: anything that I have said here was to just ask not a demand and I never mean to insult or offend anybody if that is the point then people here should try and calm down... try meditating (joke) |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 19:50:21 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf:
Those of you who have meditated before I am curious... what kind of meditation did you do and how long have you guys have done it and with what intent? |
Like many of us sixties people, I did Transcendental Meditation . As a Beatle fan I was duty bound to try it out. I bought a mantra, went to meetings and even saw the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in person, whenever he came to town.
Not much later, I went up to Ojai California to see J. Krishnamurti speak. Someone in the small group that was there asked him if paying for a mantra was a good thing. He laughed and said any word would do. He said; “you can meditate using Cokacola as a mantra, it makes no difference”. I liked him.
I also gave The Self Realization Fellowship a spin. (I have a friend who became a monk at the SRF and later told me it was possibly the worst experience of his life.)
But here is the thing, once again. While I enjoy meditation, and followed these guru's for a while, I never ever saw anything that could be interpreted as paranormal. I liked the philosophy for a while, and I still like meditation as a way to tune out, sometimes. I think there is value to meditation, but that value is not as a path to anything having to do with psychic ability.
These things that I did were not a-typical of what the generation I came from did. We were looking for self-realization and chose various methods for getting there, many of which I would not recommend to anyone. It was a part of the journey that got me to where I am today.
It took a serious examination of what I wanted to believe and what I actually experienced, a letting go of foolishness and magical thinking to get to who I am and what all of this is.
And guess what? Letting go of all the unnecessary baggage and just looking around at the world as it is and learning as much as I can about how it all works is far more illuminating and amazing to me than any magical belief I could heap on it. Plus, it has the advantage of being real…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 22:34:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Nightwolf
emsby and moakley mocking someone doesnt really help proving a point all it shows is that your still acting instinctual using hatred or fear to prove a point but in the end all you do is show yourselves. |
Still lecturing, and doing it poorly. What you've got there is armchair psychology. Want to hear what an actual psychologist would say about it? It can be arranged.| Well heres something for you to show it to your self... |
Still not scientific.| Those of you who have meditated before I am curious... what kind of meditation did you do and how long have you guys have done it and with what intent? |
Huh. I never thought about the names of the several and varied meditation techniques I learned. Never bothered with a mantra, so I certainly wasn't doing TM. The question "what kind of meditation did you do" strikes me - from my experiences - as being as meaningless as asking a Christian "what kind of praying do you do?" But obviously there are "kinds" of meditation... I just never cared, so long as it "worked."
And what "worked" meant was quite varied, also. I've communed with trees, surfed the collective subconscious and a zillion things in-between in the ten or so years I was doing that sort of thing. I even once thought that I'd astrally projected through the center of the Sun and back again... until I woke up. Little too relaxed, that time.| ...the easiest way to prove the paranormal exist is to do a little psychokinesis. |
Then why hasn't anyone been able to prove it in laboratory conditions?| And as I had previously "claimed" that everyone is inherently psychic so everyone can do it with practice. |
Yes, and you keep claiming that, without showing any evidence.| Psipog has a lot of good info if you guys are willing to give it a try. |
Last time I was there they had a lot of poor parlor tricks instead of good info. Has anything changed?| So please explain what you mean by "You should also learn what we mean by 'skeptic'" please enlighten me. |
You're not willing to try learning for yourself? Huh.| PS. Note: anything that I have said here was to just ask not a demand and I never mean to insult or offend anybody if that is the point then people here should try and calm down... |
As some are wont to say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Instead of trying to lay the blame on the people you've offended, you should instead try to understand your mistakes. It doesn't look like you do, even though you apologized. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 00:16:22 [Permalink]
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Well Dave W. since you come to know how to lecture people please tell me the valid points that emsby and moakley added to the converstion.
If you did notice I said I wasnt going to use scientific references because it ruffled some of your guys feathers, so that comment about me not being scientific I wasnt trying to be.
Yes there are different types of meditation read about it if you care to learn.
Thats very cool that you Astrally Projected :D
Yes PK (Psychokinesis) has been demonstrated in labs. Some videos from Russia have leaked and they are pretty old too.
Here is my points about the claim about everyone being inherently psychic. This would be logically thinking about this but you guys are still gonna try to tear me an new... anywho here goes
Everyone in this world is connected on the basis that they are not mindless vegitables. This means that if you had severed the link to your body then well you would be the vegetable, so on that basis you are connected. This connection goes both ways, it just takes practice and you can tune to the channel that you want to. Channel being anything that you know of.
If you guys get what I am saying...?
Why do you say call Psipog parlor tricks? Have you tried them yourself? Or are you jumping to that conclusion?
On the skeptic thing you wrote I just read about it in Wikipedia now please define which one of those are they or do you believe to be a different type of skeptic in that case please again enlighten me.
The last bit that you said is good you should try using it more often.
Peace and love,
Nightwolf
PS. Note: anything that I have said is nothing insulting in my intention its just chatting so please again please dont get offended. Please.
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Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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Nightwolf
New Member
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 00:23:30 [Permalink]
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Moakley please accept my appologies I read emsby first and thought yours was barking up the same tree.
To your question distance doesnt really affect it, it does if you dont know that person very well because the closer you are the better the connection you could make, but if you really know that person then distance is no issue because you are always connected to that person.
Let me give you an example... have you ever noticed when hanging around with one of your friends and you do a jesture or something that they would do without even noticing? Thats evidence of the connection. In women's cases its still unknown in the scientific community why women start mensturating at the same time its still a phenomenon to them but if you understand the connection with everyone then the why's become clear.
Again please accept my apologies.
Sincerely,
Nightwolf |
Some people take Skepticism is a religion. It isn't its to question everything till ultimately finding the truth. If that is your case then we are on the same path then. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 01:38:10 [Permalink]
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Nightwolf.....
To my partially tongue-in-cheek post you replied:| And finally bngbuck why do you try so hard to hurt my feelings? Let me ask you something being a skeptic in your case does it require to be rude as well? I have not said anything to offend anyone, |
I really was not trying to hurt your feelings, Nightwolf, I was combining a little sarcasm with a genuine appraisal of the nature of your post. I agree with you, the sarcasm was rude and I apologize to you (not to the Forum, they don't require it!) for the rudeness.
I will say this, however, if your feelings are easily hurt you should not be entering into discourse on these forums. Your views on psychic ability and meditation are controversial, to say the least. If you wish to discuss these matters here, you are going to hear some lively opposition to your statements - opposition based on documented fact.
Many will demand that you equally document your statements, and if you do, that documentation will be critically anaylyzed as to it's authenticity and credibility and you will be asked to defend it! If you can not or do not, you will be ridiculed for simply stating unsupported opinion! No one here will accept anything you say just because you say it.
There is plenty of opinion put forth here on SFN, some of it is accepted without response because most or all of the members are in agreement; but if an opinion is seen to be controversial, it will be challenged! So if a person wants to talk about something he or she believes to be factual or true, it is wise to have evidence demonstrating it's verity before expressing a belief in it!
God, Jesus, UFO's, ghosts, telepathy, psychic ability, Dick Cheney is a human being - if one believes in any of these things, they had better be ready to argue about it without getting their feelings hurt!
The reason I opened this post with a comment about my tongue being partially in my cheek, is this: I truly was amused and did laugh at your initial post because of it's extreme naiveté, I genuinely felt that you were a "troll", and that you were attempting to fool us into believing that you just were not very sophisticated. This suspicion has been somewhat subtantiated by several of your later posts in which your ideas, your grammar, and your spelling are greatly improved.
So I really don't know if you are for real or not, but I will certainly give you the benefit of the doubt! I apologize for hurting your feelings; ad hominem of any type is really not justified by a lack of sophistication!| but is it because of my believes that are completely different from you, need to go and name bashing, |
As I said above, it was not completely "name bashing" I thought you might be mocking a "believer"!| because your not at peace with your own believes and worry when anybody challenges them you must insult? |
No, I'm quite at peace with all of that which I would categorize as "my beliefs". Unlike some here at SFN, I am not entirely comfortable with Critical Thinking as thinking sufficient to reject all of that for which there is insufficient evidence, but that may be stepping on the toes of angels dancing on pinheads.
By and large, these folks (skeptics) have it right - adhering to principles outlined in a recent cliffnotes by Richard Elder and Linda Paul, and early delineated by William Graham Sumner in 1906
I personally would like to welcome you to SFN and promise (cross my hallux with my pinky) not to call you names if I elect to quarrel with you. But beware, there be bigger buzzsaws than bngbuck, abiding on these boards!
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Psychic Update: not so psychic
