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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2008 : 14:54:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
HH, I believe marf is trying to say that it is inappropriate for any belief (religious or not) to be the butt of insults or profanity, but at the same time, critizism of that belief is perfectly ok.
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Well, 1) she didn't just say insulting religion was inappropriate, she said religion deserves special legal protection (after earlier saying it didn't). 2) I'm not sure where the line between criticism and offense can be drawn. For instance, if you call a Christian a "mindless sheep," that is both insulting and a relevant criticism of communal reinforcement and groupthink.
So, I'm still unclear on what she meant and would like her to clarify.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/21/2008 15:08:20 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 15:41:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
I find "mindless sheep" is about as cut and dry of an insult as you can get. |
But it's also a valid criticism, so I hardly see it as cut and dry. Calling someone a "poopy face" would be a cut and dry insult.
However, "Christians have a tendency to group-think as is evidenced by _____, _____, and _____." is a criticism. Perhaps they mean the same thing, but to me, one is clearly an insult while the other is a criticism.
It's not what you say. It's how you say it.
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Clear to you, perhaps, but I definitely see shades of gray. What offends one person might seem innocuous to another. Many Muslims consider any criticism of Islam to be highly insulting, not matter how it is said.
And anyway, I really don't believe Marf meant what you think she meant. The First Amendment guarantees a right to free expression. There is no Constitutional right not be offended or insulted. The legal protection she was referring to are probably any anti-discrimination laws which are currently on the books. Only she can say for certain.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/21/2008 15:42:06 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 16:27:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I'm saying that the personal worldview of any individual is the result of many factors, so to discriminate against someone for their personal beliefs (not actions, but beliefs) is wrong. |
Well, the size of one's bank account and the color of one's hair are also the result of many factors. Discriminating against anyone for any reason is generally a bad thing, as it implies an inflexible prejudice. But sometimes, discrimination is the result of a long experience with all types of people, and recognizing some as being better (in some context) than others (I has a customer once tell me that computer programmers who don't have long hair don't know squat about programming).| Doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize irrational religious claims – and I frequently do! It also doesn't mean we should shy away from criticisms which will be perceived as insults. I'm against discrimination, not hurting peoples' feelings or taking them out of their comfort zone. |
Where are the lines drawn between prejudicial discrimination ("fundies are ignorant"), experiential discrimination ("fundies tend to be ignorant") and insult ("fundies are poo-poo heads")?| As for the gaining 20 pounds thing… that's probably a good analogy but only to some extent. I could physically lose 60 pounds (which is about as skinny as I could be without starving) but is this a reasonable possibility given my individual nature? No. I really like food. A lot. Also, take the Santa Claus thing. Could someone who is as prone to critical thinking as yourself come to believe in Santa Claus if you made it a personal goal to believe some day? Given your current worldview, why would you even make that a goal in the first place? So equally, why would a religious person involved in a religious community that gives them a lot of love, support, and a means for participating in positive community action want to shed their beliefs? |
Actually, the weight thing is an even better analogy now that you've said what you said, because you're right: it isn't reasonable to think that people can change their beliefs willy-nilly, and there are limits to what people will think. Anyone who isn't psychotic would have a very tough time really believing that they're covered in seagulls when they aren't. And it would probably take some head trauma for me to believe in Santa again.
But on the other hand, I have no motivation to believe in Santa. Again: changing beliefs isn't as easy as turning off a light. One has to be motivated, and the firmer the current belief, or the more outlandish the new belief (compared to the current one), the stronger the motivation needs to be. And outside assistance may be necessary. Just like to make radical weight changes - changes contrary to the body's natural set point(s) - make take ten-hours of working out per day, or even drugs (like to fix - or create - hypothyroidism). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 20:00:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Also, the kid didn't just compare religion to immutable characteristics. He said: | “I think it's [expletive] that religion is protected in this country. It's not like race, gender, ethnicity or nationality. People can't help those things. They can, however, help what they think.” |
This shows to me that the kid isn't thinking through what he's saying – nationality can be changed. |
I think you're overthinking this one. In this case, he was using "nationality" in a more common current usuage to indicate place of birth instead of current citizenship.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 20:08:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Seriously, am I nuts or did everyone here go to schools where the teachers would have been perfectly fine with a kid swearing and directly insulting other students during a classroom presentation? If I'd done that in school - I mean on any topic, not just religion - many of my HS English teachers would have cut me off in mid-presentation, and certainly not have given me a good grade! I'm not sure that kids should be punished for this behavior - like I stated earlier, to me it is a toss up - but I fail to see how it is extreme for the school to decide to take action to prevent further such behavior from any of the students. Otherwise what if all the students start putting expletives and insults in their presentations? They are teenagers after all.
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I think that the response was more to the extreme nature of the punishment. I agree that the punishment did not fit the crime. In the little rural school I went to, swearing and directly insulting classmates got me sent to the principal's office and my parents called for improper behavior. Not a in-school suspension.
And Wisconsin is heavily fundie. Especially in the rural areas.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2008 : 06:35:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
It is also worth noting that the teacher gave the kid a "B". Yeah, those nasty fundies terrorizing the poor, little atheist boy.
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Isn't "B" a rather good grade, after all?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2008 : 06:44:55 [Permalink]
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Regarding Santa Claus...
I cannot on a whim chose to believe in Santa.
I can however, for a sake of argument, hypothesise or imagine scenarios that incorporate Santa's existence.
But is that the same thing as belief in Santa? I think not.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2008 : 21:34:28 [Permalink]
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Sorry I disappeared for a couple days. Traveling and visiting family.
Humbert wrote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Religious beliefs are no different from other beliefs and they do not deserve any special protection. |
And then later...
| Religion does and should hold the same protected status and race, gender, and sexual preference, and that status does not shield it from criticism. |
This seems like an obvious contradiction to me, unless you are making some distinction between being religious and holding religious beliefs I can't see. |
and
Well, 1) she didn't just say insulting religion was inappropriate, she said religion deserves special legal protection (after earlier saying it didn't). 2) I'm not sure where the line between criticism and offense can be drawn. For instance, if you call a Christian a "mindless sheep," that is both insulting and a relevant criticism of communal reinforcement and groupthink.
So, I'm still unclear on what she meant and would like her to clarify. |
I think I see the breakdown in communication. If you regard the protection of race, gender, nationality, ethnicity, and sexual preference to be “special protection” then indeed I do think religious identity and practice – so long as practice involves legal activities - deserves special protection. And I believe this for pretty much the same reasons I think those others should be protected; in short, because it is an integral part of an individual's identity and lifestyle and forcing someone to alter or hide that part of themselves IMO unreasonably deters that individual's pursuit of happiness.
Another place where I think our communication probably broke down a bit: with regards to the legal protections, I was commenting on what the kid said about how he thinks religious shouldn't be protected (even though it clearly is protected by the Constitution.) I wasn't saying that this legal protection extends to mockery. I feel quite strongly that anyone should have the freedom to mock and insult religion, even though I find civil and polite criticism to be a much more effective means of achieving a more rational society. This kid was punished for doing what he did in the context of a school environment, and just as students are expected to follow dress codes, they are expected to follow certain codes of conduct which are much higher than general public standards.
Incidentally, I agree very much with Kil's assessment of this whole affair.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 04:49:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Seriously, am I nuts or did everyone here go to schools where the teachers would have been perfectly fine with a kid swearing and directly insulting other students during a classroom presentation? If I'd done that in school - I mean on any topic, not just religion - many of my HS English teachers would have cut me off in mid-presentation, and certainly not have given me a good grade! I'm not sure that kids should be punished for this behavior - like I stated earlier, to me it is a toss up - but I fail to see how it is extreme for the school to decide to take action to prevent further such behavior from any of the students. Otherwise what if all the students start putting expletives and insults in their presentations? They are teenagers after all.
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You may be nuts, but you may not be alone. The punishment doesn't seem all that steep to me.
He certainly deserves the "B" for effort for intent, but the actual execution was more like a "D'. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
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A student's right to rip up a Bible, insult Xians
