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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2008 : 09:15:09 [Permalink]
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Don't run off ZeeKrey.
There is a simple solution to the problem you are having now, and its one that you should try and learn well if you are actually going to practice medicine. You have to be able to explain complex ideas to other people in a way that provides them some understanding... if you can't do that, then you are going to have serious problems.
So write us a paragraph or three that explains "nervous circulation". Yeah, we will want some references, but you can easily provide us that data. Just give us the journal articles and text books you obtained the data from yourself.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 09:19:55 [Permalink]
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Just wanted to add:
"Nervous circulation" is, in my experience, a term associated with chiropractic "medicine". So you have your work cut out for you here if you want to establish the credibility of this term taken from the quackery of chiropractic.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 10:36:48 [Permalink]
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| I've been writing a response but I'm tying to make sure I hit every question. Bare with me. Also please refrain from becoming so hostile, I don't see how that is productive unless you are trying to scare me away. That I'm sure you're not trying to do considering we're all here to learn. |
Zee'Krey |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 10:50:16 [Permalink]
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It seems to me that ZeeKrey is being very genuine and honest in his efforts. Given that and that he's new to the forum, could the level of hostility fall and the level of kinder language rise? Being a skeptic doesn't have to mean being condescending.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 11:02:51 [Permalink]
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| "Nevermind then. Sorry for commenting" is rather typical of a final "pity me" sort of post - an indication that further replies would not be forthcoming. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 11:10:06 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | No, what I want to see is any widely acknowledged medical expert using the terms "nervous circulation" or "polar conduit" in the last, say, 50 years. Neither two-word phrase appears in any journal article indexed by PubMed, and that includes some rather odd alternative journals. |
What about this instead – what if ZeeKrey went back to his first couple posts and attempted to say what he was saying with the terms “nervous circulation” and “polar conduit” but in a different way. Wouldn't that make more sense for eliminating what seems to be a lot of confusion, possibly rooted in misunderstanding. In my experience, a lot of quakery is mixed in with legit science, and since ZeeKrey has one foot in both the alternative and the conventional medicine, maybe his confusing terms.
| I call "baloney" on that, too. Probably the most-common preventative medical advice offered by allegedly "allopathic" doctors is, "eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, don't smoke, etc." |
Yes and no. I've rarely had a doctor advice me on that sort of thing. They'll question me about it and write the answers down, but they never advice me or take the time to explain how to prevent something unless it is something very specific that they are treating at that time.
| Any doctor who tells me that he/she practices "holistic" medicine will find me walking out their door, because it shouldn't even be a consideration. |
Don't you mean that the term “holistic” has been more often than not utilized by quacks, even though the general explanation of the term means something useful that should be done?
| Any doctor who fails to take things like "emotional state" into account during a history is practising poor medicine. |
Then pretty much every doctor I've ever gone to is practicing poor medicine. They do not ask any questions about my stress or emotional state in the paperwork, nor do they ask me during checkups. This is especially fucked up since I have a phobia of medical things and so I'm in a state of obvious distress the entire time I'm with a doctor. My face loses color, I can't make eye contact, I shake, and often have trouble speaking and moving around easily. You'd think that any decent doctor would ask me about this behavior, but very few ever have. Once I had a doctor shove a pamphlet in my hand at the end of a checkup which was how to get help for stress disorders. And once while discussing my migraines, a doctor asked me if I have a lot of stress in my life, and when I said yes, she asked what caused it. I was shocked! Seriously, no doctor had ever asked me anything like that before.
The alternative medicine community has evolved only partially out of crackpot ideas. It is also born out of the deficiencies with how medicine is practiced in this hurried, modern world where nurses and aids rush patients through an examination prep and then after waiting half naked for another 15 minutes (I once waited for 45!) the doctor makes an appearance for 5 minutes and then scoots out just as fast. At least that's been my experience for the past 12 years.
| Anyone who advertises that they're "holistic" won't even find me calling for an appointment because they're telling me that they believe in some non-existant biological dualism, or that they're trying to sucker the rubes for a buck, or without having met my doctor or even heard his name, they arrogantly think they can do a better than job than he.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 11:12:13 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | "Nevermind then. Sorry for commenting" is rather typical of a final "pity me" sort of post - an indication that further replies would not be forthcoming. |
This crowd can be rather overwhelming for someone who isn't used to it. As skeptics are we not allowed to be sensitive to that? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 11:50:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
What about this instead – what if ZeeKrey went back to his first couple posts and attempted to say what he was saying with the terms “nervous circulation” and “polar conduit” but in a different way. Wouldn't that make more sense for eliminating what seems to be a lot of confusion, possibly rooted in misunderstanding. In my experience, a lot of quakery is mixed in with legit science, and since ZeeKrey has one foot in both the alternative and the conventional medicine, maybe his confusing terms. |
My point, marf, is that I can't even find alternative researchers using those terms in the last several decades.| I call "baloney" on that, too. Probably the most-common preventative medical advice offered by allegedly "allopathic" doctors is, "eat right, exercise, get enough sleep, don't smoke, etc." |
Yes and no. I've rarely had a doctor advice me on that sort of thing. They'll question me about it and write the answers down, but they never advice me or take the time to explain how to prevent something unless it is something very specific that they are treating at that time. |
I've seen your pictures, marf. Unlike me, you look like you eat right, get exercise and plenty of sleep. And I know you smoke only the occassional cigar.| Any doctor who tells me that he/she practices "holistic" medicine will find me walking out their door, because it shouldn't even be a consideration. |
Don't you mean that the term “holistic” has been more often than not utilized by quacks, even though the general explanation of the term means something useful that should be done? |
It amounts to the same thing, yes?| Any doctor who fails to take things like "emotional state" into account during a history is practising poor medicine. |
Then pretty much every doctor I've ever gone to is practicing poor medicine. |
Indeed. Especially the pamphlet doctor.| The alternative medicine community has evolved only partially out of crackpot ideas. It is also born out of the deficiencies with how medicine is practiced in this hurried, modern world where nurses and aids rush patients through an examination prep and then after waiting half naked for another 15 minutes (I once waited for 45!) the doctor makes an appearance for 5 minutes and then scoots out just as fast. At least that's been my experience for the past 12 years. |
Say that your car runs badly. Do you keep taking it to the same bunch of mechanics that can't seem to fix it and treat you poorly (for 12 years)? No, you take it to different shops until you find one that does the job right. If more people treated their doctors like they treat their mechanics, plumbers and general contractors, your doctors would shape up or face dramatic losses in income. But the vast majority of people don't treat doctors as people that you contract with to perform a service, they put them up on a pedestal (if you've ever said anything like "I'm sorry for bothering you with this, doc..." then you're guilty, too). The doctors should be the ones saying |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 12:47:11 [Permalink]
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ZeeKrey.....
Hang in there! The hostility will go away - it is merely the Pavlovian nature of this particular Beast. Look at Marf - she first posts this....
| These are things that you are studying and which you plan to base a career on; can't you find the words to dispel Dave's confusion, including medical references? Even if they are references he can't look up online, at least he could look them up. You seem to be basically asking people to take your word for it. |
At first blush, this appears a tad hostile, but very shortly she is writing...| It seems to me that ZeeKrey is being very genuine and honest in his efforts. Given that and that he's new to the forum, could the level of hostility fall and the level of kinder language rise? Being a skeptic doesn't have to mean being condescending. |
She is quite right, and I completely agree with her!
You already have Dude (a tough little bastard) saying....Don't run off ZeeKrey. There is a simple solution to the problem you are having now, and its one that you should try and learn well if you are actually going to practice medicine. You have to be able to explain complex ideas to other people in a way that provides them some understanding... if you can't do that, then you are going to have serious problems.
So write us a paragraph or three that explains "nervous circulation". Yeah, we will want some references, but you can easily provide us that data. Just give us the journal articles and text books you obtained the data from yourself. |
Again, I couldn't agree more!
You have persuaded me, by your return, that you have perseverance - and that is essential to getting on with this crazy crowd. The man that has endurance is he who has obdurance!* Now, explain well that which you know well, and everything around here except Dave will get all warm and fuzzy. In about six months or so, Dave will drop a remark here or there that shows a little grudging admiration for your posts. Then you will have arrived and all you will have to do is figure out how to deal with the obvious retards here like me!
We all hope your response is addressing the problem of - What the Hell is "nervous circulation" and What, by the Sacred Sac of the Savior,** is a "polar conduit"?
*A neologism created for the sole purpose of rhyme.
Obduration is the correct form.
**This beautiful bon mot was invented and copyrighted by me, and has been stolen by Filthy several times and used here. I am currently suing him for plagiarism. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 14:06:52 [Permalink]
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Zeek said:
| Also please refrain from becoming so hostile |
This isn't hostile. This thread has been quite calm and respectful.
Don't mistake a demand for reference and evidence as hostility, because those things aren't. Don't mistake being told you are wrong for hostility, because it isn't.
No one here is likely to demand the same rigor you'll need to have when stating conclusions in an academic setting, but verifiable references for claims of fact will always be requested. Especially when you are dropping none to subtle hints of chiroquackery.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 19:14:12 [Permalink]
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The problem here is that you assumed "nervous circulation and conduit" are terms. I did not use them as terms I used them as words, descriptive words and I explained what they meant various times.
Thank you for being reasonable Marf and Buck.
Dave so far you've taken my words in ways I could not even imagine. My intentions and meanings behind my words seem to translate too you in a very far off way than I am use to. I thank you for that as I can better fine tune my communication skills.
Dude, DI think there is hostility in here and I know I am not alone in thinking that. "If you cant take the heat then get the hell out!" is not necessary or encouraging that it is worth my time to speak here.
I have not had more than a few moments to go back and correct some of the misunderstandings people have made or false claims such as referring to "chirokwakery". I will get too that soon but I will have to go back and read your responses more thoroughly to understand where the confusion is and if it is even possible to give more explanation.
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Zee'Krey |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 19:31:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ZeeKrey
The problem here is that you assumed "nervous circulation and conduit" are terms. I did not use them as terms I used them as words, descriptive words and I explained what they meant various times. |
Okay. Now tell me how a massage "involves nervous circulation assistance."
When you said, "Without them [chemicals used by nerves] there can be no polar conduit or electrical impulse," did you mean that "polar conduit" is a synonym for "electrical impulse?"| Dave so far you've taken my words in ways I could not even imagine. My intentions and meanings behind my words seem to translate too you in a very far off way than I am use to. I thank you for that as I can better fine tune my communication skills. |
I am simply expecting your words here to mean the same thing they mean to the professionals in the field to which you aspire. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 22:47:40 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | I've seen your pictures, marf. Unlike me, you look like you eat right, get exercise and plenty of sleep. And I know you smoke only the occassional cigar. |
Well, thanks, but you're being presumptuous. I suppose you get these ideas from the good skin I inherited from my mom and the fast metabolism I inherited from my dad. Alas you are wrong on every count, especially the sleeping. While I do none of these vices in excess, I smoke cigarettes in social situations, I haven't exercised in 3 weeks, and I ate pizza both yesterday and today. I pretty much go in spurts of better and worse behavior, depending on my stress levels and work schedule. Now that I feel like crap about myself, I will continue on!
| Indeed. Especially the pamphlet doctor. |
I admit that she was a piece of work. She almost forgot to do the final part of my exam; I had to remind her! There seem to be a lot of shitty docs out there. My dad's doc didn't do a family history on him, and then he went and had a heart attack at the age of 54. Had the doc asked about it, he would have find out that my dad had a bunch of aunts and uncles who died fairly young of heart attacks, and he probably would have told my dad to get a stress test. Instead he looked at my dad's age and weight and figured he was in great health.
| The doctors should be the ones saying "yes, sir," to their customers, and the receipts they hand out should say things like, "Thank you for your continued patronage of Dr. Smith's Family Practice." |
Nice dream. Actually, I disagree with you. In my medical utopia, doctors have much more gentle bedside manners, and go into clear, layman's explanations of everything relevant to the patient's condition and treatment.
The libertarian attitude of thinking about health care as a market and sick people as customers seriously concerns me. Health care should not be handled by the free market nor should it be thought of in terms of capitalism. It doesn't abide by the normal laws of supply and demand. How much will you pay to stop or lessen constant pain? How much will you pay to live? That's fucked up.
Most of my adult life so far, I was either without health insurance or a student and so had to go to certain places to get my healthcare. I also have moved around a lot so usually don't stay anywhere long enough to stick with one doc. I found one I like here, but have twice had to go to different doctors because her schedule conflicted with mine. When you need help right away, when you are limited by funds or your health insurance, shopping around isn't always much of an option. I think the high cost of health care and co-pays has more to do with people not shopping around than people putting docs on pedestals does.
| Now that is stretching things, as I never suggested they do. |
Fair enough.
| If someone doesn't buy into the ideas but uses the terms as if they did, then they are lying to their patients. |
I meant that one can be a patient who doesn't buy into the explanations but still uses the service because they think it is helpful for an unknown reason. An example is my mother in law. My mother in law does not buy into any of the crackpot ideas explaining her alternative care-giver's treatments. She only tried them because this person is her friend and insisted, and afterward she had to admit that she felt better. She figures that it could be placebo or therapeutic |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 06:12:29 [Permalink]
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Dave Posted:
Okay. Now tell me how a massage 'involves nervous circulation assistance.'"
Again, circulation was a bad word. The contents of nerves do not circulate most of the time, they go in one direction (from cell body to terminal)and do not make a direct return to the origin. If a nerve is entrapped it will not conduct properly; the nerve will instead transmit no stimulation, pain, tingling, pins @ needles, etc. to notify the body that the nerve is, lets say entrapped by a muscle muscle. In the gluts, the piriformis muscle is often the cause of sciatic pain because the nerve is entrapped by the band-like muscle. The piriformis normally does not trap the nerve, of course, but when it does become hypertensive it pushes the sciatic nerve causing discomfort, impinging "nervous circulation", causing the previously stated stimuli or lack of.
"Nervous circluation" can also be impinged by a lack of blood supply (ischemia) which causes hypersensitivity. Also, Biomechnical dysfunctions such as lifting using your back incorrectly, typing at a keyboard at a "funny angle" Etc
Said by Dave:
"When you said, "Without them [chemicals used by nerves] there can be no polar conduit or electrical impulse,' did you mean that 'polar conduit" is a synonym for 'electrical impulse?'"
I meant the nerve is a polar conduit. Meaning simply that the Sodium/Potassium/Calcium "action potential" it has to conduct electricity. What I should have just said is "conductivity due to alternating polarity of molecules".
Said by Dave:
I am simply expecting your words here to mean the same thing they mean to the professionals in the field to which you aspire.
I understand. I figured "polar conduit" was the best way to say "Nerves are like wires that conduct an electrical impulse along the nerve cell due to alternating polarity of chemicals." It seemed shorter and sweeter at the time. I was trying to avoid being wordy. Most forums I belonged to don't even read my posts if they are too detailed. It hit me much harder after being in this forum a couple days that I do not pay enough attention to detail. This is a huge problem of mine when it comes to explaining things and since explaining things helps you memorize things, I don't end up memorizing the detail longer than a semester. I really appreciate the need for detail here.
The terms used above are well known pathologies you can probably wiki easily. Let me know what needs citation. I will get use to it soon dont worry. Thanks for your patience with me I know i've used a lot of everyones time in this thread. |
Zee'Krey |
| Edited by - ZeeKrey on 04/24/2008 06:22:10 |
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ZeeKrey
New Member
United Arab Emirates
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2008 : 06:23:33 [Permalink]
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| I need to start using html on these posts. I totally mangled the order of those quotes and had to edit their position twice. |
Zee'Krey |
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Neti pots, sinus disease, and migraines
