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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2008 : 20:46:38
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Yesterday I had a rather surprising conversation with another atheist who is a leader in a local skeptic organization. He said that he wouldn't vote for Obama based on the video clips of Jeremiah Wright, and that Obama would associate with such a preacher and church shows a serious flaw in his character.
I should probably note that this guy was an older, white, middle class guy. Not that that all older, white, middle class guys would think this way, but it is easy to have blind spots based on one's own personal experiences, and to somebody from that background, a sermon such as the ones given by many mainstream black preachers may seem out of control and even frightening. But Black Liberation Theology is a pretty mainstream Christian sect in American, in the same way that Roman Catholicism, Methodists, and Lutherans of various stripes are mainstream Christian sects.
So here's what bothers me: Is what Rev. Jeremiah Wright said in those clips any worse in nature that the Catholic idea that birth control shouldn't ever be used? Certainly the latter has probably caused more direct harm to the world. Does that mean that any individual Catholic politician has a serious character flaw due to that association? The same could be said for any religious sect; most include claims and stances which many people outside that religion would find highly offensive and even dangerous. And yet it seems silly to say that because a politician belongs to this or that mainstream religious community, he or she has a serious character flaw, and even more absurd if that politician speaks out against exactly what is objectional about the religion. Obama has made it pretty damn clear that he, too, disagrees with and is offended by those particular statements of Wright's.
Other thoughts on this matter?
Edited to add: The same skeptic guy I was talking to had less of a problem with McCain for his recent catering to and support from various religious right leaders.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 04/11/2008 20:49:06
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 21:22:09 [Permalink]
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| Edited to add: The same skeptic guy I was talking to had less of a problem with McCain for his recent catering to and support from various religious right leaders. |
Then he isn't paying attention. Or he is a closet racist. Hagee is insane. He publicly says that we have to support Israel because the Jews have to rebuild the temple so the rapture can happen. Delusional seems an inadequate word.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 22:07:25 [Permalink]
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| Then he isn't paying attention. Or he is a closet racist. |
He knows about Hagee, but his argument is that the relationship between Obama and Wright was of a much more personal nature, what with Obama giving money to that congregation and being an official and longterm member of the church. To me, that doesn't cut it; by accepting support from fanatics, McCain is allowing himself to be associated with them. And McCain hasn't spoken out against his fanatic supporters; Obama did speak out against Wright's offensive statements, and he did so with great sensitivity and eloquence.
I don't think the guy is a racist in the sense that he is a bigot. That said, there is a sort of "racism" (don't like to use that word anymore except in extreme and clear cases since it is such an emotional hot button and conversation stopper) in that negative stereotypes and misunderstanding about African American culture (and how it differs from the urban youth culture) are perpetuated by the voluntary segregation of races typical in our society.
I'm sensitive to the idea that Barack Obama had some deep identity issues to deal with being half black and half white, and having a father who was not even of the same nationality as his mother. I figure that ties into his being drawn into a church like Trinity even though he was raised in a secular home. His views on religion and its relationship to politics impresses me; he supports separation of church and state and the idea of common ground and mutual tolerance on issues of public policy. He is anything but fanatic or self-righteous about his own religious practice and faith, even if it is important for him on a personal level. The man has his priorities on that matter straight. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2008 : 22:10:26 [Permalink]
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To be honest, I never even heard what Rev. Jeremiah Wright said, but I gather that it's racist against white people. And while I do think leaders in the black community often keep racial fires stoked for their own self-interests, and while if Obama was Muslim and this were his Imam I'd probably be very uncomfortable with this sort of open hostility, for some reason in this case I just don't mind. There are a lot of people and a lot of communities that are pissed off at our government right now. If I were African American and saw the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, I think I just might come to the conclusion that a black life just isn't worth as much as a white life. And I'm betting that might make me pretty angry. It might even make me angry at all white people, although in my calmer, more reflective moments, I'd have to admit that it's probably only the fault of a few. Maybe I'm suffering from a touch of that liberal guilt I've heard so much about, but the fact that Obama's preacher might hold a bit of lingering contempt for "the man" seems a hell of a lot less scary to me right now than the agenda of the theocon fascists cuddling up to McCain.
Ok, I've looked up a few quotes and they seem pretty much like righteous anger to me. He blames the government for getting us into the mess we're in, and I agree. Yeah, he may see the state of the country in a more starkly racist terms than I do, but he ain't all wrong. This is the first black Presidential candidate who's ever had a realistic shot at winning.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/11/2008 22:12:55 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 01:44:06 [Permalink]
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Marf, I think your acquaintance is wrong, for racist reasons. And I think we -- especially white people like myself -- use the term "racist" far too little. The term does have a meaning, and it's one of the main reasons why African American citizens live in relative poverty.
Also, (right on, H.H., bro) if Katrina proved anything, it was that the Bush Administration indeed values black people far below its other citizens. (Considering the general contempt this administration has for its citizens, they seem to consider black Americans to be worth less than nothing.) Racism is alive and well, folks. And it will continue to thrive if it's not recognized and attacked when it rears its head.
Racism springs from fear and ignorance. Part of the problem is that your acquaintance isn't familiar with black churches, black culture, or the whole black experience.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/12/2008 01:52:46 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 05:25:57 [Permalink]
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| As far as Katrina goes, the Bush Administration also ignored (is ignoring) the poor whites and Vietnamese who live along the coast in Mississippi. You tend not to hear about them as much as the New Orleans folks, but since I live less then 120 miles away, I still hear about it. I tend to think that the government just doesn't care about middle class/poor people, no matter what race. FWIW. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 07:41:57 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: | And while I do think leaders in the black community often keep racial fires stoked for their own self-interests |
This may or may not be true, and probably more likely to be true of leaders who are in positions of much greater wealth and power. But I highly doubt it is the case with Jeremiah Wright. He's was just a preacher at a large church. Given the nature of his style of preaching, he probably often got carried away in the moment and said things he wouldn't have in moments of more thoughtful, calm contemplation. I think a lot of his anger stems from what he would have experienced. People his age can remember hangings and much worse and overt expressions of racist bigotry. I thought Obama's speech confronting the issue was really beautiful, because he did firmly denounce those controversial statements of Wright's, he put them in a context and refused to disown the man who has been his friend and mentor.
Half wrote: | Marf, I think your acquaintance is wrong, for racist reasons. And I think we -- especially white people like myself -- use the term "racist" far too little. The term does have a meaning, and it's one of the main reasons why African American citizens live in relative poverty. |
There are two main problems with accusations of "racism" today. First is that racism is associated with racial bigotry, but most reasons why blacks are disadvantaged in our society are not due to any conscious bigotry, but rather, are due to economic and institutional setups which are historically rooted in overt bigotry. A black writer recently wrote a book about this and was interviewed on NPR (wish I could remember his name and his book), but he gave the example of cab drivers in NYC who often won't pick up a black person not because they have a problem with black people, but rather, because more likely than not the black person will request to be driven to very back parts of town where the cab drivers are more likely to become a victim of violent crime. The fear is of a reality, not a mistaken perception, and unfortunately race is the only way they think they have to differentiate.
The other problem with accusations of racism is that they are extremely offensive, so if bigotry is not at play, the target of the accusation is likely to get really angry and upset. Here's an example from my own life: a friend of mine (a white, liberal man) insisted to me that "all white people are racist." Even though I knew he was referring to the overall systems in our society that perpetuate racial discrimination and disadvantages for blacks, and that he was not talking about personal bigotry, I became enraged. I became enraged for personal reasons: I have chosen to live in a black neighorhood. I plan to adopt and we won't put in a racial preference for ethical reasons, so I'm likely to also end up with a child of color. So for someone to tell me "all white people are racist" makes me furious. I get angry just thinking about it as I write this.
In short, it is a conversation stopper, and one thing we really need to be able to do if we want to improve race relations is have productive conversations. I think accusations of racism should be reserved for things which are overt bigotry, such as not hiring or promoting someone because they are a particular race. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/12/2008 07:43:53 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 11:04:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
There are two main problems with accusations of "racism" today. First is that racism is associated with racial bigotry, but most reasons why blacks are disadvantaged in our society are not due to any conscious bigotry, but rather, are due to economic and institutional setups which are historically rooted in overt bigotry. A black writer recently wrote a book about this and was interviewed on NPR (wish I could remember his name and his book), but he gave the example of cab drivers in NYC who often won't pick up a black person not because they have a problem with black people, but rather, because more likely than not the black person will request to be driven to very back parts of town where the cab drivers are more likely to become a victim of violent crime. The fear is of a reality, not a mistaken perception, and unfortunately race is the only way they think they have to differentiate.
The other problem with accusations of racism is that they are extremely offensive, so if bigotry is not at play, the target of the accusation is likely to get really angry and upset. Here's an example from my own life: a friend of mine (a white, liberal man) insisted to me that "all white people are racist." Even though I knew he was referring to the overall systems in our society that perpetuate racial discrimination and disadvantages for blacks, and that he was not talking about personal bigotry, I became enraged. I became enraged for personal reasons: I have chosen to live in a black neighorhood. I plan to adopt and we won't put in a racial preference for ethical reasons, so I'm likely to also end up with a child of color. So for someone to tell me "all white people are racist" makes me furious. I get angry just thinking about it as I write this.
In short, it is a conversation stopper, and one thing we really need to be able to do if we want to improve race relations is have productive conversations. I think accusations of racism should be reserved for things which are overt bigotry, such as not hiring or promoting someone because they are a particular race.
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I certainly don't think people should be going around calling people racists unnecessarily. And not all white people are racists -- but the vast majority of us are, to one extent or another.
Racism is so pervasive in our society, it's nearly invisible even to those who unconsciously practice it.
Like most people, I, too, am offended when people say all whites are racists -- even though that accusation comes very close to being accurate. I see most white people as being like myself, something akin to "recovering racists." Like alcoholics who no longer drink, we may control our behavior admirably, but we remain poised to fall off the wagon.
I grew up in a home with a strong Southern heritage, including world-of-mouth stories of cotton plantation slave-overseeing and lost-cause Civil War battles handed down from my great-grandfather. The "N" word was used extensively in my family, along with a whole slew of now less well-known specialized racist terms for male, female and minor black people.
Yet my family -- my mother, father, sister and brother -- "evolved." Along with my daughter and my sister's sons, every one of us (we're all still living) have voted for Barack Obama for President in the primary election. None of us are overtly racist, anymore, and some of us are actively tolerant. This does not cleanse us of the evil stain of racism, but we have our addiction under control.
I am so happy for those few white people who were raised in actively anti-racist homes. (I remember being told by poet/novelist Nathalia Crane Black that her father once told her that she could marry an Eskimo, as far as he cared, so long as the man was a decent human being.) But most of us have this disease of racism lurking in us, even if we actively work for a more tolerant world. (And by "us," in this case I include all "races" of people, though few have this historically-rooted disease to the extent that most of us whites do.)
I feel that this presidential campaign season has the chance of becoming a major watershed in American "race" relations. Political and social events tend, I feel, to operate by "punctuated equilibrium," with sudden, momentous changes happening after long periods of apparent stability. Obama's remarkable recent speech on the subject of his minister and race, I think, contributed greatly to this. If he's elected President, I think this will have a huge effect on the thinking of Americans in general -- and just getting that far in the first place will demonstrate a great deal of progress among white Americans.
No, we should not brand people with the epithet "racist" except under extreme circumstances, but we should never shy from correctly diagnosing the disease.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/12/2008 13:30:58 |
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Only minding the stupidity we're not used to
