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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:22:17
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I was responding to a review of the book Same Kind of Different As Me thats about how a small number of people can do a lot of good, at least locally:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9921
I said should have started a new thread, so here it is.
Slavery is the ultimate cause of Denver's problems (as implied by the review), and God is being given credit for helping him: "...God brought these people together to help the poor and homeless in Ft Worth."
Look, what gets my knickers in a twist is this whole tendency for Christians to give God credit for all the little good things that happen, yet gives him a pass on all the freeking misery in the world, that praises God for saving someone in a disaster, yet says nothing about the thousands who were not saved. God could have ended slavery with just a few words in the Bible, maybe a "Slavery is an abomination unto Me" in the Old Testament, or a "Give up thy salves and follow unto me" in the New. But instead He allows it, yet is given credit for helping a few homeless folks in Ft. Worth. Geez. 
And Bill Scott, I don't know of any state where the people are,or have been free of religious thinking. I know you're probably thinking of the Soviet Union as a counter-example, but do you really think that the citizens abandoned their religion and the Bible? The Russian Orthodox Church is still around. The people did not abandon their opiate. Many European countries come close these days, and I'd speculate that the poor there are better off than the poor here.
Anyway, I don't think that abandoning religion would guauantee a better life for all, I just think its more likely to happen when you're not fooling yourself about some cosmic Father Figure looking out for His children.
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2008 : 11:55:52 [Permalink]
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There is no God, only the graspings of the churchs that pander to the yearnings and fears of the world's populace through any of several texts of imaginitive legends and lies. The God of Abraham is no more than a parasitic superstition as are all the rest of them. The churchs in this and all countries are ever seeking power by trying to back-door their fantasys into every aspect of life as has been done elsewhere. And thus, Christianity is no better than Islam.
Fuck Islam.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 12:27:20 [Permalink]
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On a related matter:
"Churches to put their tax status on the line for the GOP?
Posted May 9th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Federal tax law, as it relates to tax-exempt religious ministries, is pretty clear — houses of worship may not legally intervene in political campaigns, either in support of or opposition to a candidate or a party. Those who violate the law run the risk of losing their tax-exempt status. With some regularity, the IRS reminds houses of worship about this, warning them about the dangers of ignoring the law.
A far-right group in Arizona, however, has an idea: conservative churches should ignore the law — and in the process, test the law — on purpose.
A conservative legal-advocacy group is enlisting ministers to use their pulpits to preach about election candidates this September, defying a tax law that bars churches from engaging in politics.
Alliance Defense Fund, a Scottsdale, Ariz., nonprofit, is hoping at least one sermon will prompt the Internal Revenue Service to investigate, sparking a court battle that could get the tax provision declared unconstitutional. Alliance lawyers represent churches in disputes with the IRS over alleged partisan activity.
The action marks the latest attempt by a conservative organization to help clergy harness their congregations to sway elections. The protest is scheduled for Sunday, Sept. 28, a little more than a month before the general election, in a year when religious concerns and preachers have been a regular part of the political debate."
At least part of my point above is made, and oh, I do hope they go for it. I've been wanting to see the churches taxed for the business' that they are for decades. What a pity that they'll never get Dobson, Perkins, Robertson, and the rest of the TV big timers on board. Big money will trump courage of convictions every time, with that bunch.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 13:17:37 [Permalink]
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Robb said: "I disagree. Why is there still murder, adultry etc.? The BIble says not to do those things. You do not understand the human condition."
I understand the human condition well enough to know that murder and adultery are acts that can be done in such a way that no one need know you did it. People will often do what they think they can get away with. If caught, they know the consequences. Its difficult to have secret slaves. If condemned by the bible, slavery would not have existed in the western, Christian world except in isolated, secretive circumstances. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 14:34:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
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| And Bill Scott, I don't know of any state where the people are,or have been free of religious thinking. I know you're probably thinking of the Soviet Union as a counter-example, but do you really think that the citizens abandoned their religion and the Bible? The Russian Orthodox Church is still around. The people did not abandon their opiate. |
So the Russian Orthodox Church is holding the Soviet Union/Russia back from becoming a “better place?” How so?
| Many European countries come close these days, and I'd speculate that the poor there are better off than the poor here. |
Meanwhile we have obese homeless people and pan handlers that bring in 50K plus a year in this country.
| Anyway, I don't think that abandoning religion would guauantee a better life for all, I just think its more likely to happen when you're not fooling yourself about some cosmic Father Figure looking out for His children. |
Do you have any examples or evidence of this notion that you could point too?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 14:50:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So the Russian Orthodox Church is holding the Soviet Union/Russia back from becoming a “better place?” How so? |
By keeping people shrouded in mythology instead of reality.| Meanwhile we have obese homeless people and pan handlers that bring in 50K plus a year in this country. |
Yup, judge the norm by the extreme, Bill. That's how to create a rational argument. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 15:29:47 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| So the Russian Orthodox Church is holding the Soviet Union/Russia back from becoming a “better place?” How so? |
By keeping people shrouded in mythology instead of reality. |
But I would guess that few in Russia practice their religion, thus it having little effect in the grand scheme of the Russian scene.
The country has an area of 6,592,769 square miles and a population of 142.8 million. In practice, only a minority of citizens actively participated in any religion. Many who identified themselves as members of a faith participated in religious life rarely or not at all. There is no one set of reliable statistics that breaks down the population by denomination, and the statistics below are compiled from government, polling, and religious group sources. Approximately 100 million citizens consider themselves Russian Orthodox Christians, although the vast majority are not regular churchgoers.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90196.htm
| Meanwhile we have obese homeless people and pan handlers that bring in 50K plus a year in this country. |
Yup, judge the norm by the extreme, Bill. That's how to create a rational argument. |
That is the norm in my city. And the majority of shelters and homeless refuges are run by religious folk.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 17:12:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But I would guess that few in Russia practice their religion, thus it having little effect in the grand scheme of the Russian scene. |
It seems that "better by a little bit" doesn't count as "better" to you at all, then. How depressing. Pick enough pennies off the ground, and eventually it'll add up to a substantial sum.| That is the norm in my city. |
Really? Then I'm going to move! Where the heck do you live?| And the majority of shelters and homeless refuges are run by religious folk. |
You say that as if it means that shelters and homeless refuges would vanish if religion were to vanish. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 19:26:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by leoofno
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| And Bill Scott, I don't know of any state where the people are,or have been free of religious thinking. I know you're probably thinking of the Soviet Union as a counter-example, but do you really think that the citizens abandoned their religion and the Bible? The Russian Orthodox Church is still around. The people did not abandon their opiate. |
So the Russian Orthodox Church is holding the Soviet Union/Russia back from becoming a “better place?” How so? |
Huh? You missed the point entirely. You asked someone to name a place where a "majority of people do not proclaim to be Christian and they do not profess the Bible and that you see as a 'better place' then [sic] the US of A?" Leo said that he really couldn't name a religion-free country. He also tried to preempt a logical counter-argument that Russia, due to its Communist ruler during much of the 20th century, was religion-free and yet it (by most standards) sucks.
Unwittingly, you've answered that claim by suggesting that Russia is fairly religion-free and still sucks. Of course, one could question the wording of the site you referenced. It says that "many who identified themselves as members of a faith participated in religious life rarely or not at all." But HOW different is this from the US? Obviously he have some significant minority who are active church-goers. But there are plenty of people who would say that are "Christian" who go to church exactly twice a year and do little else in terms of religious participation. And this from a place that hasn't been ruled by an officially atheistic government for some 60-70 years.
In any case, I think Scandinavia would be an example of a region that's not decidedly religious (e.g. Norway ("An estimated 85 percent of the population (3.9 million persons) nominally belongs to the state church. However, actual church attendance is quite low"), or Denmark ("As of January 2006, 83 percent of the population belonged to the official Evangelical Lutheran Church. Although only 3 percent of church members attend services regularly, most members utilize the church for weddings, funerals, baptisms, confirmations, and religious holidays")), and yet in many areas is "better" than the US.
| Many European countries come close these days, and I'd speculate that the poor there are better off than the poor here. |
Meanwhile we have obese homeless people and pan handlers that bring in 50K plus a year in this country. |
You can cite multiple examples of pan handlers regularly bringing in more than $50,000 a year? Really? I seriously doubt this. That's $140 a day, every day. Rain or shine. Holiday, work day, weekend. Every day. Sick or not.
When I lived in Baltimore, I worked at a liquor store and occasionally a homeless guy would come by and ask us to change his change into bills. This usually added up to $10 or maybe $20 bucks. Perhaps that was only a fraction of his daily intake, but I doubt it. And he might not have been pan handling in the most idea intersection in Baltimore. But $140 a day every day? Puh-lease. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 21:12:42 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Originally posted by Bill scott
But I would guess that few in Russia practice their religion, thus it having little effect in the grand scheme of the Russian scene. |
It seems that "better by a little bit" doesn't count as "better" to you at all, then. How depressing. Pick enough pennies off the ground, and eventually it'll add up to a substantial sum. |
Leo was the one making the claim that religion and belief in God was holding countries back from becoming “better places” and he was the one who brought up the USSR when I asked if he could provide some examples. He then went on about the ROC as to which I pointed out that the ROC has very little influence on the country as a whole thus making them a pretty much non-religious country for the most part, who in my opinion, is not a better place then America. If Leo thinks it is better I would like to hear why. You then chime in with your pennies analogy as if any country has a 0% percent of non-religious people or a 0% of religious people.
| That is the norm in my city. |
Really? Then I'm going to move! Where the heck do you live? |
I have yet to see a skinny person here panhandling. It's anecdotal but true.
| And the majority of shelters and homeless refuges are run by religious folk. |
You say that as if it means that shelters and homeless refuges would vanish if religion were to vanish. |
Not vanish, but have a major dwindle. All the shelters in my town, that I can think of, are run by a religious organization. And that ties in with leo saying that religon is holding all back from a "better place."
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/09/2008 21:35:06 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 21:22:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
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| Look, what gets my knickers in a twist is this whole tendency for Christians to give God credit for all the little good things that happen, yet gives him a pass on all the freeking misery in the world, that praises God for saving someone in a disaster, yet says nothing about the thousands who were not saved. |
A. God, as the creator and sustainer of all life, has the authority to call back any life that he has given at anytime he may choose and who can challenge the authority of the giver of all life?
B. The person spared from a particular disaster, when thousands others perished, was not saved, but merrily given more time. They eventually died as well, just as those in the disaster. See whether we get 10 years or 100 years on this Earth it is appointed upon all men to die and then…
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 22:10:15 [Permalink]
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bill liar-for-jesus scott said:
A. God, as the creator and sustainer of all life, has the authority to call back any life that he has given at anytime he may choose and who can challenge the authority of the giver of all life?
B. The person spared from a particular disaster, when thousands others perished, was not saved, but merrily given more time. They eventually died as well, just as those in the disaster. See whether we get 10 years or 100 years on this Earth it is appointed upon all men to die and then…
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retared apologetics.... get with the program Billy! This is a skeptics site, you'll have to do better than inventing excuses for your pathetic little deity.
Evidence is where its at! You have none. Good luck finding some.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 22:38:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Leo was the one making the claim that religion and belief in God was holding countries back from becoming “better places” and he was the one who brought up the USSR when I asked if he could provide some examples. He then went on about the ROC as to which I pointed out that the ROC has very little influence on the country as a whole thus making them a pretty much non-religious country for the most part, who in my opinion, is not a better place then America. If Leo thinks it is better I would like to hear why. |
Oh, good grief. As if the Russian Orthodox Church is the only religion in Russia. Besides, the Russian Embassy claims that "Religion plays a prominent role in the public and spiritual life of today's Russia." They also say that theists are some 40% of the population, including two million Protestants.| You then chime in with your pennies analogy as if any country has a 0% percent of non-religious people or a 0% of religious people. |
As if? No. It's a dream I have, not yet a reality. Except for the sociopaths whose pathology is reined in by the threat of Hell, I think that people losing their faith will increase the amount of good things done on this planet for people, instead of for some invisible untouchable being.| I have yet to see a skinny person here panhandling. It's anecdotal but true. |
I want to know what city it is so I can live like a king on the streets, thanks.| Not vanish, but have a major dwindle. |
Thus showing that you think people, without religion, will be largely without compassion.| All the shelters in my town, that I can think of, are run by a religious organization. |
So what? The implication that most of the shelters in your town would close up shop if everyone running them woke up tomorrow atheist is simply ludicrous. The suggestion that these good people would stop doing good things if God stopped telling them to devalues their humanity.| And that ties in with leo saying that religon is holding all back from a "better place." |
Doing and thinking certain things in order to ensure one's place in a mythical afterlife does hold people back, simply as a waste of time and energy. It also causes direct harm to many in the form of crusades, bombings, grifting, airline crashes, racism, sexism, sectarian wars and anti-science propaganda (not an inclusive list). Of course these things won't vanish completely if religion were to disappear, but there would be one less crappy excuse for them. A crappy excuse which, by the way, the perpetrators of these evils demand that other people respect - a situation that is simply insane. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 23:00:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A. God, as the creator and sustainer of all life, has the authority to call back any life that he has given at anytime he may choose and who can challenge the authority of the giver of all life? |
Anti-abortion advocates think they have such authority. So do the people running homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Any attempt to help anyone live longer (from fertilized egg onwards) is a challenge to God's authority to call back a life.| B. The person spared from a particular disaster, when thousands others perished, was not saved, but merrily given more time. They eventually died as well, just as those in the disaster. See whether we get 10 years or 100 years on this Earth it is appointed upon all men to die and then… |
Thus you have reinforced the idea that nobody should ever help anyone else, since it's God's call on how long anyone gets. Except, of course, that your bizarro God demands that you do help. Except He also demands that you kill (for example, you're commanded to kill anyone who worships a different god).
The point remains: why do we only hear madmen thanking Jesus for, say, killing thousands of people on 9/11? Why wasn't it an event that resulted in rejoicing amongst all Christians, to see God in His Wisdom calling so many home all at once? Why, instead, was there mourning and sorrow in the churches? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2008 : 21:16:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by leoofno
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| Look, what gets my knickers in a twist is this whole tendency for Christians to give God credit for all the little good things that happen, yet gives him a pass on all the freeking misery in the world, that praises God for saving someone in a disaster, yet says nothing about the thousands who were not saved. |
A. God, as the creator and sustainer of all life, has the authority to call back any life that he has given at anytime he may choose and who can challenge the authority of the giver of all life?
B. The person spared from a particular disaster, when thousands others perished, was not saved, but merrily given more time. They eventually died as well, just as those in the disaster. See whether we get 10 years or 100 years on this Earth it is appointed upon all men to die and then…
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A. Um, OK, but that doesn't address my point.
B. Ditto. (P.S. Try telling that to the parents of a child who has been tortured, raped and killed. "Get over it, dudes, we all gotta die sometime.")
You're actually a good example of what I'm talking about. 
Bill, is there anything that could happen that would shake your belief in God? Anything that would make you say, "Dang! No benevelent God would allow that to happen!"?
NOTE TO SFN: I'm sorry I'm not responding more. My time is really limited. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2008 : 23:38:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A. God, as the creator and sustainer of all life, has the authority to call back any life that he has given at anytime he may choose and who can challenge the authority of the giver of all life? |
In other words, people who have been convinced that they are soldiers for God can kill innocent people who are not of the same faith because they believe it is done in the name of God.
Originally posted by Bill scott
B. The person spared from a particular disaster, when thousands others perished, was not saved, but merrily given more time. They eventually died as well, just as those in the disaster. See whether we get 10 years or 100 years on this Earth it is appointed upon all men to die and then... |
Well as I see it, you're saying your "God" creates a disaster to watch people die (rather than just start a life over) and also appoints set lifetimes to people. Your phrase "and then..." implies a last judgment. This belief is a way for the pseudo-religious controlled by a charismatic Bible thumping leader to again feel justified that they are "saved" and hence superior to people of other beliefs or no beliefs. Definitely an evil, disgusting outlook that runs counter to freedom and the value of humanity in my opinion. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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God is Great?
