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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2011 : 14:13:18 [Permalink]
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So you can't link to objective sources?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/23/2011 : 18:02:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyndon
Dear Dave W. Have you tried nitrogen inflation in your tires? |
Actually, my new car came with nitrofill without me asking for it. Over the last four months, they've lost one psi per month, just like air filled tires. At least, I can't tell the difference on gas-station pressure gauges.| Can't spare the 20 bucks? |
$20 how many times per year?| And to claim that your data is more sound then Clemson University is idiotic. |
I never made any such claim, you just made that up. If you had bothered to read what I wrote about the Clemson study, you'd know that what I said was that their own data show how false the researchers' conclusions are. For example, the researchers claimed a 70% reduction in rolling resistance, but what they actually measured was a 70% reduction in the increase in rolling resistance, which is a very different metric.| I suppose you contend that Bridgestone Tire are idiots; Jay Leno too! |
No, but I would contend that you're an idiot for attempting such blatant arguments from authority on a skeptics' site. Where is the data from Bridgestone and Leno?| And to request my personal experience data is as absurd as you are. |
Why? You claim to have measured a 9% improvement in gas mileage from nitrofill, so I guessed that you had your own data to back that claim up. Hell, I kept mileage data for my '98 Saturn for a whole year as I tried out different driving styles. I'm keeping mileage data for my new car (four months so far, and I've already shown that the computer's average mileage calculation is 7% higher than my actual mileage, a problem about which the manufacturer is aware and is working on a solution). So if you asked me how I knew I am getting about 38 MPG, I'd be able to publish the raw data here for you to confirm. Why would such a request be absurd?| The vast majority of nitrogen tire users love the product. |
Argument from popularity. Millions of people like homeopathy, too, even though it's a crock.| Go ahead, spend your $20 at McDonalds... |
You don't get it, do you? I'm very interested in saving gas money, but I'm not going to spend money to do so on something like nitrofill when the objective data is so poor and the researchers so sloppy.Bwahahahahahaha! You re-animated this three-year-old thread, buddy. I didn't just start criticizing you out of the blue. If anyone should get a life, it's the schmuck who tried to advertise his services on a thread in which those services have already been roundly panned, without even attempting to address the prior criticisms. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Lyndon
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2011 : 00:04:09 [Permalink]
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Hey Dave, where's your response? What other "scientific" studies have proved that nitrogen tire inflation is bunk that you claim to exist? I put scientific in quotes to address professional idiots like you that possess no viable evidence.
FYI, wet oxygen is what compressed air delivers when not properly filtered with refrigerated dryers. Moisture, combined with oxygen content, reduce tire life and pressure retention over time because both are corrosive, volatile elements; nitrogen is not.
NitroFill generators possess external filters to remove any residual moisture and impurities from compressed air sources when inflating tires to 95+% dry nitrogen purity. Nitrogen cannot corrode anything; do you also contest this "scientific"fact?
Your rebuttals of the Clemson Study and other reputable studies and testimonials are weak. You absolutely have no supporting data, aside from your bloviating drivel. You have not tried the product, nor interviewed anyone that has, unlike me. Show me the proof, as you put it. I Have! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2011 : 03:34:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyndon
Hey Dave, where's your response? What other "scientific" studies have proved that nitrogen tire inflation is bunk that you claim to exist? I put scientific in quotes to address professional idiots like you that possess no viable evidence.
FYI, wet oxygen is what compressed air delivers when not properly filtered with refrigerated dryers. Moisture, combined with oxygen content, reduce tire life and pressure retention over time because both are corrosive, volatile elements; nitrogen is not.
NitroFill generators possess external filters to remove any residual moisture and impurities from compressed air sources when inflating tires to 95+% dry nitrogen purity. Nitrogen cannot corrode anything; do you also contest this "scientific"fact?
Your rebuttals of the Clemson Study and other reputable studies and testimonials are weak. You absolutely have no supporting data, aside from your bloviating drivel. You have not tried the product, nor interviewed anyone that has, unlike me. Show me the proof, as you put it. I Have!
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You know what Lyndon? You seem to think that skeptics go out of their way to debunk a claim that if true, we would benefit from. You know... Because we all drive cars and the price of gas is high. Why would we do that? Upon a little bit of investigation what we found from sites like Consumer Reports were, yeah. It works. But not enough to make paying for it worth it. It's better to check your tires once a month to make sure that they are properly inflated seems to be the consensus among reviewers of the product.
The wet claim, for example, while true, is also misleading because we tend to purchase new tires when the tread wears out. Whatever damage from the inside that water from compressed air is doing, it's much slower than the damage to our treads that regular driving ultimately produces. Even if the nitrogen filled tires lasts forever and the inside of our tires are pristine, it's the outside wear on our the tread that gets us. And the only way to minimize that damage, nitro filled or not, is once again to keep our tires properly filled.
If there's a study that confirmed a significant benefit of nitrogen filled tires in passenger cars, and the study is valid, we would have no reason to conclude that filling our tires that way isn't worth the money it costs to do it. It's as simple as that. We have no vested interest in being skeptical about the claims made in the OP of this thread. We all want to save money. You, however, do have a vested interest because you sell the service.
You said | Studies prove that nitrogen tire inflation improves tire pressure retention and rolling resistance by 70%, thus significantly improving fuel economy and tire life. |
That's "studies," plural. So aside from the Clemson study, you should be able to produce other studies. We base our opinions on the available real data, and not on testimonials and anecdotes.
I ran a search with these search terms: Is filling your tires with nitrogen worth it? What I found was a little mixed but mostly, no. And while that's not a study, it's certainly as good as the evidence that you have brought to us so far. And frankly, I think it's kind of funny that many of the sites that are pro, both sell the stuff and also have the same little video with Jay Leno. He's an expert because???
So really, rather than being insulting, why don't you produce some real data and convince us? The claim is yours, and it is therefor yours to support.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2011 : 08:30:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyndon
Hey Dave, where's your response? |
That's your answer to criticism? To claim that no response has been made? If you're happy to stick your head in the sand, you go right ahead.| What other "scientific" studies have proved that nitrogen tire inflation is bunk that you claim to exist? |
So now you're attempting to shift the burden of proof? Good grief.| I put scientific in quotes to address professional idiots like you that possess no viable evidence. |
No, you were talking about studies that support nitrofill when you put "scientific" in quotes. Or are you one of those people who think that quotes act like italics, bold or underlining?| FYI, wet oxygen is what compressed air delivers when not properly filtered with refrigerated dryers. Moisture, combined with oxygen content, reduce tire life and pressure retention over time because both are corrosive, volatile elements; nitrogen is not. |
Then it's not "wet oxygen," but moist air. Why not be precise?| NitroFill generators possess external filters to remove any residual moisture and impurities from compressed air sources when inflating tires to 95+% dry nitrogen purity. Nitrogen cannot corrode anything; do you also contest this "scientific"fact? |
No, I'm just ridiculing the pseudoscientific terminology used by your industry to make its claims sound more truthy to unsuspecting marks.| Your rebuttals of the Clemson Study and other reputable studies and testimonials are weak. |
Point out where, exactly.| You absolutely have no supporting data, aside from your bloviating drivel. |
No, I used their data to show that their conclusions are wrong. How hard is this to understand?| You have not tried the product... |
This is both irrelevant and a lie.| ...nor interviewed anyone that has... |
This is also irrelevant. Personal testimonials are not scientific evidence.If you want to waste your time on irrelevancies, don't complain to me when your claims are criticized.| Show me the proof, as you put it. |
I did, so far as the Clemson study goes. Got anything else you want me to look at in detail?No, you've presented nothing but testimonials, pontifications and insults. Is that a good way to get more customers?
Why not present good scientific studies? How about even just one study that supports the use of nitrofill in passenger cars driven only 12,000 miles per year?
Don't you get it? I want to use nitrofill if it will really save me money. The studies I've seen so far not addressed the product as I would use it, because I'm not a long-haul trucker. The studies I've seen so far have also been sloppy, with the researchers (who have tended to be engineers, and not scientists) coming to conclusions that simply aren't supported (or are contradicted) by their own data.
The way to sell me on nitrofill is to correct these problems, not to call me an idiot because I refuse to ignore them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2011 : 09:12:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Lyndon
Hey Dave, where's your response? What other "scientific" studies have proved that nitrogen tire inflation is bunk that you claim to exist? |
As Dave showed earlier in the thread, with criticisms to several specific claims, that many of them were false.
Enough of the claims about benefits of nitrofill has been challenged to put the practice in question.
I put scientific in quotes to address professional idiots like you that possess no viable evidence. |
Insulting Dave like that makes your argument weaker, not stronger.
FYI, wet oxygen is what compressed air delivers when not properly filtered with refrigerated dryers. |
Wet oxygen is a misnomer, since it's not the oxygen that is wet, but the air. If oxygen molecules were to magically disappear, the nitrogen that is left would still have water in it. You would have "wet nitrogen".
Moisture, combined with oxygen content, reduce tire life and pressure retention over time because both are corrosive, volatile elements; nitrogen is not. |
The tyre is exposed to moisture, water, oxygen all the time even after being nitrofilled. It's called weather. They are also exposed to petroleum products at the gas station.
In my experience, road wear is the reason I've always changed tyres. Roar wear is a function of several factors, where tyre pressure is the only one I can see being related to nitrofill. And as Kil and Dave have already mentioned above, you can have the same pressure with air as with nitrogen.
Also, water's and oxygen's corrosiveness and volativity is dependent on what material it comes into contact with. Water and sodium is a bad idea, but oxygen in your lungs is a necessity. Rubber is mostly inert, especially to water and oxygen, which is why rubber is used in gaskets.
NitroFill generators possess external filters to remove any residual moisture and impurities from compressed air sources when inflating tires to 95+% dry nitrogen purity. Nitrogen cannot corrode anything; do you also contest this "scientific"fact? |
I absolutely contest that "scientific fact", because it took me mere seconds to think of a situation where nitrogen content becomes harmful when getting pressurised.
But I agree with you that nitrogen, in the context of filling tyres, is mostly inert. Just like water and oxygen.
Your rebuttals of the Clemson Study and other reputable studies and testimonials are weak. |
Specifics, please. What specific rebuttals of Dave's are weak? If you can show which they are, and explain to us why they are weak, then we can go back and re-evaluate Dave's criticism of the study. Perhaps then, we might come to another conclusion.
You absolutely have no supporting data, aside from your bloviating drivel. |
More insults, mixed with a blatant lie. You are seriously hurting your credibility by this, when you could be showing us how your vested interest in selling nitrofill is not affecting your judgement in this case.
You have not tried the product, nor interviewed anyone that has, unlike me.
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More lies, as Dave already explained that the tyres on his car came nitrofilled. Keep digging that hole. You still haven't showed us that it's economically defensible _for_us_ to use it.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Nitrofill your car tires
