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craiger
New Member
11 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2008 : 10:48:02
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I ain't no genius. I don't read much. I find myself getting bored easily. I tune out everything that has nothing to do with cartoons or weight loss.
I know nothing 'bout no global warming. One side says man is causing it, the other says no he ain't. Well, we had global warming before man: that kind of puts a dent in the man is responsible theory.
But I got a different take on this and I wish somebody would bring this up to all the experts, like Limbaugh or Hannity:
Has anyone heard this before?
Work with me on this........Answer these questions honestly before you read the next question.
Okay....you are in an Olympic size swimming pool. A huge pool. You are at one end. Boy, is it relaxing. Ah...if feels good. You look and see at the far opposite end this big fat guy. He pulls down his pants. And he takes a nice long whizz in the pool. You can plainly see the yellow spread out in a lovely freeform pattern.
Now the question: DO YOU GET OUT OF THE POOL?
Do you?
If you said yes...now wait. This is a HUGE swimming pool. It is filled with chlorine and all sorts of chemicals. Plus the fact that the guy is on the other side. By the time the we-wee reaches you it would be so diluted it wouldn't bother you. You might see a little shade of yellow, but no big deal.
Would you get out of the pool?
If you still say yes, then.....
Why aren't you doing everything to stop pollution? Look at the brown skies, the oceans, bad air alerts, the contamination of wildlife. Isn't this Earth like that big pool? The only difference is we can't get out. You don't want to deal with a little wee-wee but your willing to accept all this?
Folks, DON'T PEE IN THE POOL!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:28:38 [Permalink]
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But we aren't getting paid to stay in the pool!
If somebody give us 100 bucks to stay in the pool, will we stay? Well, there is several TV shows based on similar stuff. I suspect most people would.
And, indeed, people feel like they are being paid for staying on the global warming pool, as they have being told many times that taking care of the environment would have a big economical cost...
That's why a lot of people are reluctant and wiling to let themselves be convinced that it is all crazy-scientist talk.
As for your first question... There have been other period of 'global warming' in the past, sure, but this one is unique in term of the speed at which the temperature are changing.
Also, studies from the ice-core as well as the timing of this warming suggest that there might be several thing that cause a global warming and, in the case of the current one, the cause is human activity.
Furthermore, looking at the past show us that past period of climate changes had huge effect on the ecosystems and human societies, leading to the collapse of several civilizations.
While it is difficult to predict what the effects will be on our own society, it seems to me reasonable to assume that the fallout would be severe and costly enough to go out of our way to try and avoid/limit it. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:41:28 [Permalink]
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Hi craiger.
To continue your analogy, the guy on the other end of the pool is also a Urine Oil Corporation Executive in high standing who has contributed heavily to the election of the President of the Swimming Pool Board of Directors currently operating the pool. The current Pool Administration have argued that Urine Oil pee pee is beneficial and "provides jobs" - in fact, earlier they even argued that urine pool contamination is a "myth" invented by "warm water radical environmentalists." The Pool Administration's own scientists have also investigated, but their findings were edited and even suppressed by Pool Administration lackeys until recently.
Over time, more and more public notice of these issues finally gets bathers to take note of "pool climate change". People begin to notice the predicted temperature changes, smells, higher germ counts, and that might lead people to become concerned; that and the fact that toxic urine also melted all the floating Polar Bear inflatable toys.
It also becomes political with some when the former Vice President of the previous Pool Administration and opposition party decides not to run in politics but instead devotes time and money to a movie warning all the pool folks about the dangers of pool contamination.
Most recently, minor progress has been made in public awareness with some acknowledgment that pool pee is bad and the current administration has begun back tracking, saying: "Well, ummm that's what we said all along. Can we play golf now?"
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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craiger
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 17:11:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But we aren't getting paid to stay in the pool!
If somebody give us 100 bucks to stay in the pool, will we stay? Well, there is several TV shows based on similar stuff. I suspect most people would.
As for your first question... There have been other period of 'global warming' in the past, sure, but this one is unique in term of the speed at which the temperature are changing.
Also, studies from the ice-core as well as the timing of this warming suggest that there might be several thing that cause a global warming and, in the case of the current one, the cause is human activity.
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100 bucks, eh? Sounds like "The Magic Christian Effect" (remember the movie with Ringo Starr?) where the folks are wading in animal refuse to grab money. Very few truly care about what happens to the other person (but that's a discussion nest left for a different website).
What comparisons do you have to call this global warming "unique"? How long has mankind been keeping weather records? Are there any Egyptian heiroglyphics that translate as "Today's weather is...". Are there markings in Stonehenge that read "Wow, this stone is hotter than usual". Man's span on earth is short...far too short to make accurate prophesisesesse about climatic events that take hundreds or thousands of years to conclude.
These are the arguements, and good ones at that, many folks use to batter down "man created Global Warming" proponents. It's basically a "we say you say" arguement. You get nowhere with that tactic!
Look, folks, forget about global warming and concentrate on what is plainly evident: The brown skies, the filthy oceans, etc. etc.! That's the bad stuff we all can see and grasp!
People can grasp what they see now. Even if man causes it, folks don't care what will happen to a polar bear fifty years from now.
And Chippewa...great post! I wish I thought of it! "warm water radical environmentalists." GREAT LINE! Though I do not believe anyone will do anything until a mass of floating "baby ruths" float into the upper class swimmers only section. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 18:19:32 [Permalink]
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craiger said:
I know nothing 'bout no global warming. One side says man is causing it, the other says no he ain't. Well, we had global warming before man: that kind of puts a dent in the man is responsible theory.
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The earth has gone through many natural warming and cooling cycles. Yes.
We are at the boundary of two geologic epochs, the Pleistocene (which we are just leaving, which was the last ice age) and the Holocene, which is only a handful of thousands of years old. (aka the present).
Atmospheric composition can be accurately measured going back for more than a hundred thousand years via glacial ice cores. We know what the concentration of CO2 is now, and has been for a long period of time in human terms.
Anthropogenic (human) CO2 emissions started with the beginning of the industrial revolution. We see this clearly in ice core measurements, and can track the levels over time.
We also have a net increase in average global temp over the last 100 years.
With me so far? All we have, to this point, is interesting correlation for anthropogenic activity and increased temp. We all know how horribly wrong you will be if you assume correlation is the same as causation. Sometimes you will guess right, but mostly you'll be wrong in the end.
Now we bring in a concept called radiative forcing. This is a fancy term for the net energy balance at the tropopause (boundary of the first two layers of the atmosphere). How much energy comes in from the sun, and how much gets let back out. If all the energy that hits earth from the sun stayed in out atmosphere the planet would boil. Literally.
Some clever people have come up with some clever ways to measure the radiative forcing effect of specific compounds and molecules. As it turns out the net balance of human activity is a net increase in radiative energy that remains in the atmosphere.
Read this. Feel free to ask questions.
Now don't get me started on the adverse effects of climate change, the stuff that could effect humans on a wide scale long before we have a disaster movie scenario on our hands!
The mosquito. It kills more humans than any other animal every year. Its habitat is limited sharply by temperature. Amoebic encephalitis kills a few people every year in FL. Warmer temps could see this little piece of nasty become a common affliction. Its mostly fatal. West Nile virus. Cholera. Red Tide. Just to name a few things that love warm places.
Phytoplankton, the base of the global food chain and primary producer of oxygen. They live in a fairly narrow pH range. Our oceans, fortunately for us, are buffered somewhat. But CO2, when released into the air, will dissolve in the water (basic gas law). When CO2 dissolves in water it forms carbonic acid, which lowers the pH.
You can observe just how drastic this effect is at home. Get some distilled water and a straw from the grocery store. Get some pH strips from the pet store (aquarium section). Take a liter of distilled water and pout it into a big bowl. Measure the pH. Take a straw, inhale one single breath and blow bubbles into your liter of distilled water. Measure the pH again.
My point is... kill the phytoplankton and you kill most of the rest of the life on earth. Not overnight mind, but in terms of geologic time we'd be gone in a blink.
That alone should be all the convincing anyone needs to want to eliminate anthropogenic CO2 emission (and other acidifying pollutants).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 21:12:35 [Permalink]
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I am on the side of cleaning up our act and doing what we can about global warming. But I have also peed in my wetsuit to keep warm while surfing. Is there a conflict?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 00:28:44 [Permalink]
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craiger.....
He pulls down his pants. And he takes a nice long whizz in the pool. You can plainly see the yellow spread out in a lovely freeform pattern.
Now the question: DO YOU GET OUT OF THE POOL?
Do you? |
What would your reasons be for getting out of the pool?
1. I might get infected from the big fat guy's urine.
Highly unlikely. Normal urine is sterile. Primarily urea, also bicarbonate, chloride, phosphorus, sulphur, bromide, fluoride, iodide, rhodanide, potassium, natron, calcium, magnesium, iron, copper, zinc, cobalt, selenium, arsenium, lead, mercury. Also dozens of other organic and inorganic substances, some toxic, but nothing particularly dangerous!
2. It's just fucking nasty!
Yeah, that's the reason - not that it's gonna hurt or kill you.
But does the same reasoning apply to global warming? No, and for all the excellent reasons that Dude enumerates and a good many more. Basically, it can hurt and kill you, and every effort possible should be put forth to arrest its development!
Craiger, your message is a good one, but the metaphor is not nearly strong enough. Better ask if you should stay in the pool while the fat guy is pouring large quantities of concentrated acid or ebola virus solution into the far end! Get out if you can, but shoot the fat guy!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 02:50:52 [Permalink]
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Or bust the fat guy's nose for being an asshole....
On June 12, there's gonna be this: By Paul McDougall
InformationWeek
May 27, 2008 03:12 PM
Conservative grassroots group Grassfire.org wants people to waste as much energy as possible on June 12 by "hosting a barbecue, going for a drive, watching television, leaving a few lights on, or even smoking a few cigars."
The point: the group wants to "help Americans break free from the 'carbon footprint guilt' being imposed by Climate Alarmists."
Grassfire.org says it's skeptical over claims that man-made sources of carbon dioxide emissions -- from automobile exhausts to manufacturing plants -- are raising the Earth's temperature at a dangerous rate. Theories about global warming were highlighted by former Vice President Al Gore's 2006 film, An Inconvenient Truth.
Grassfire.org president Steve Elliott, in a statement, said such theories are off the mark. "It's time for Americans to purge ourselves of the false guilt that Al Gore and the Climate Alarmists have placed on us," Elliott said.
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Steve (note the name) Elliot must be one of the premir climate scientists, as he seems to have a handle on the problem: "It's all in your head so forget about it and fiddle whilst Rome chokes." Good man!
Fucking idiot! Or to be fair, perhaps he's just pimping for the energy companies.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 07:03:21 [Permalink]
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Craiger doesnt like to read everyone,
Here's my answer,
You are mistaken, the evidence is overwhelming for temperatures rising at a never before seen speed, it is this speedy increase which is going to screw us over, royally.(even the supporters generally underestimate the soon-to-be effects.) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 07:13:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by craiger
Look, folks, forget about global warming and concentrate on what is plainly evident: The brown skies, the filthy oceans, etc. etc.! That's the bad stuff we all can see and grasp! |
Doing things to combat global warming will do a lot to clean up the other bad stuff, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 10:45:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by craiger
Look, folks, forget about global warming and concentrate on what is plainly evident: The brown skies, the filthy oceans, etc. etc.! That's the bad stuff we all can see and grasp! |
Doing things to combat global warming will do a lot to clean up the other bad stuff, too.
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Thatīs what I always tell people that say to me they donīt believe in MMWG but care about the environment. Most steps needed to combat MMGW will combat general pollution as well.
Cheers! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 20:52:53 [Permalink]
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| I use energy saving light bulbs |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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craiger
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 21:55:12 [Permalink]
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I find many of these posts interesting...There are several good and funny ones. But there are some that did not seem to grasp the main concept of my post.
My post was NOT about whether global warming is man caused or not. It was about trying to expose the hypocrisy of some folks.
I found it interesting that so many latched onto the buzz words "global warming" and not the concept of trying to expose the hypocrisy of certain people.
I then followed up with the concept that when there are extreme opposite points of view you get nowhere. If you want to get a point across, talk about what a person can see with his own eyes and not what two scientists disagree on. Again, that point, too was passed up.
the comment "Craiger doesn't like to read everyone" is unclear. What does that mean? I am obviously on the side of a clean planet, but could it be that isn't enough? I have heard blanket statements like that from Limbaugh and Hannity.
I find it useless to debate "man made global warming" because, as a couple of you have said, taking care of the pollution we can see and smell now will go a long way to combating any real or conjectured effects man has on the planetary weather.
I also use energy saving lightbulbs. They're high in fiber. |
| Edited by - craiger on 05/30/2008 22:03:27 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 05:35:25 [Permalink]
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craiger said:
I found it interesting that so many latched onto the buzz words "global warming" and not the concept of trying to expose the hypocrisy of certain people.
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Who, specifically, are you saying is a hypocrite?
And why don't you think it is relevant that humans are having an impact on global climate?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 09:04:33 [Permalink]
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I can see your point; I think.
Basically going to 'Global warming sceptics' and telling them 'regardless if you believe in GW; here are some pollutions so obvious that you can't argue with them, let's do something about that'.
I have problems with that for two reasons:
-All the science point at GW being real. I find it annoying when people reject the scientific truth; it really gets under my skin; and I try to correct their mistakes when I can. Same reason why Creationists/IDist annoy me.
Especially, people that lie about GW often do it purposely for their own selfish benefits. Let fight 'em!
-GW is the main ecological threat today. By focussing our conservative efforts somewhere else, we let the situation getting even worse. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Global Warming: True? So what if it is?
