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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2002 : 16:46:16
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I have a friend, who's slowly been turning herself into an occult-addict over the past two years. It's important to respect the beliefs of others, but to me that is not the same as saying, you shouldn't challenge odd delusions.
I didn't really know how bad this True Believer Syndrome had got until a few days ago. She's had a couple of tough years with her business, love, health and finances. Those times in our lives that deserve the term “crisis” and where friends listen and listen and listen and try to toss in a little advice and some help.
Maybe I should've reacted harder, when half a year ago she suddenly, out of the blue, proclaimed she believed in God, because one of her “gurus” said it was necessary, or the “magic” wouldn't work.
But I didn't. She seemed happy and “the guru” had told her, the man she wanted would come her way soon. How can realism compete with that?
But the other day she'd turned against the former guru, because he didn't tell her, what she WANTED to hear. And found another one.
“What she wanted to hear”. Goodness, I thought. What has this come to? I told her about the Forrer-test. How that would make ANY hand-reading, astrology chart, clairvoyant session 80% “true”, no matter what.
She didn't listen. That was new. To talk to a good friend, who got this expression on her face, as if what I'd just said had already been forgotten, and she continued talking about “the man she loves”, and how the clairvoyant had told her, it was a matter of time, then he'd come to her.
New tactic. I suggested she try six months without the paranormal crutches. She couldn't, she responded, she needed “magic” to get money. At that moment I was looking for my jaw on the floor.
While at the same time realising that priests, in all forms and guises, live off of selling “your wishes will come true” to people who believe, I also concluded, my friend would need a lot more “work” than I'd imagined.
Any of you been in the same situation? Any good advises? Suggestions?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2002 : 17:35:54 [Permalink]
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Sounds like she''s way off the deep end.
You can''t help those who don''t want help. I''d say just be there when she falls and try to keep her from being ripped off too badly by these blood-suckers.
Wishing all luck,
f
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2002 : 23:25:03 [Permalink]
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I think it is the same as a drug addiction. As filthy said, you cant help those that don't want help. When I was addicted to speed, I didn't want people telling me what I was doing was wrong, even though I knew it. I kelp on my merry way until <b>I</b> wanted to get off.</P><P>Hopefully the same happens with your friend.</P><P>I may be optimistic, but I think common sense prevails most of the time.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 03:46:09 [Permalink]
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I agree with the drug addiction analogy and recommend http://www.rationalrecovery.org.
http://www.rational.org/Taming.FB.html helped me to lose thirty pounds.
Remember that magical thinking often comes from a desire to solve problems. That's not a bad thing.
Also remember that the need for immediate results is also magical thinking. Just because it doesn't look like your gentle persuasion isn't working doesn't mean that it has no effect.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 04/11/2002 04:09:09 |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 10:40:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Any of you been in the same situation? Any good advises? Suggestions?
Yes, I've been in the same situation, having gone through a jesus freak period back in the mid-seventies. The only cure was time and exposure to grim reality.
You might try appealing to whatever sense of intellectual pride that your friend may have. I wish some articulate skeptic had done that for me, but my family and friends, for the most part, had their own irrational beliefs at the time, and put my own vagaries down to my belonging to "one of those bad cults," while viewing their own as "true religion." Ah, the magic of words.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 13:25:42 [Permalink]
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Bradley:
quote:
You might try appealing to whatever sense of intellectual pride that your friend may have.
How might one do that?
I am in rather the same situation as Omega.
Edited by - Xev on 04/11/2002 14:37:50 |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2002 : 18:12:41 [Permalink]
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Yes, the occult-addiction does seem to bear a resemblance to other addictions. And initially I did think that it was okay that she had “something” to inspire hope. When things look very grim, even I may become slightly paranoid of ladders and black cats, with a mindset going something like “it doesn't hurt trying to avoid more bad luck.”
Appealing to her pride. Yes, how does one go about doing that? At the moment my friend's two main problems are her financial situation and a man, she claim to be very much in love with.
And she will listen to whatever guru tells her that this guy will fall in love with her in so and so many months. I become the bogey(wo)man, when I try to tell her, that she should also consider, that this man might not start to love her in the future.
She's already greatly annoyed with me, because I straight out challenge her beliefs. So the anti-guru crusade is not the option. I think a True Believer will simply stop listening to a rational mind and reason, when it's not what they want to her. Or wish to hear.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2002 : 12:10:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bradley:
quote:
You might try appealing to whatever sense of intellectual pride that your friend may have.
How might one do that?
I am in rather the same situation as Omega.
Edited by - Xev on 04/11/2002 14:37:50
There are ways to appeal to a person's intellectual pride, but be prepared to do a little sparring.
Try reccommending books like Randi's "Flim-flam!" or Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things." The person may say something like, "I don't do much reading." Do not let him or her go with such a line! Point out that not doing much reading is not a thing to brag about. If your friend gets defensive, be clear that you are not calling him or her stupid, but that, on the contrary, you consider the person of more than reasonable intelligence, and that he or she should be above such self-deprecating statements.
Use the Socratic method. Rather than trying to proselytize for skepticism, ask questions. Ask how he or she knows that the advice he or she receives from his or her guru is sound. Ask in what medium this guru gets his information. If the matter boils down to "faith," be quick to point out that this "faith" is a damaging admission rather than a supporting argument. Be ready for the "I don't want to argue" evasion. Ask what's wrong with argument. Point out that argument is an intellectual process intended to establish a proposition, and a way of exercising the mind. Stress that this kind of exercise is positive in a way which can never be achieved by pop psychology, folk wisdom, or cracker-barrel philosophy.
Finally, ask your friend to compare himself or herself with the true believers he or she may know. Ask, "Do you really belong in this type of company?" Call me a snob, but if I lacked the self-esteem to feel superior to my old compatriots, I'd sure do something about it post haste. As with the above, be prepared for the usual evasions. They're pretty much predictable.
You can see, as I previously remarked, that this will involve some sparring. Good luck; I don't envy you your task.
Feel free to contact me, and also to put your friend in touch with me, via email.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:27:06 [Permalink]
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Bradley> Interesting. But you see, I already flung myself into a debate to establish whether or not it was a matter of belief. My friend has no problems semi-believing in God or spirits or higher astrals, as long as it gets her what she wants. Or the guru may promise her, that her dreams will come true.
I gather some people revert to parapsychology and occultism in times of crisis. My friend has been in one for a long time, and has “decided” to focus her attention on her love-life. She somehow believes, that if she can just get “this man”, then all her problems will be solved. And she doesn't care if it involves faith.
She's convinced that the gurus and mediums can “see” things and predict the future. The Forrer-test did nothing to convince her, that they'll always be so general, and that gurus and parapsychologists live off of telling people what they want to hear.
I can't tell my friend that the “man” will come to her, that he actually do love her, but just can't figure himself out and (etc. etc. etc). from what I have heard he doesn't love her, and may never do so. How can realism compete with her dreams?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 10:02:30 [Permalink]
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It's interesting how addictions to drugs & alcohol so easily become addictions to some religious belief. I wonder if it is the same center in the brain that controls both? It would put the Guru in a class with the Drug Pusher if it was.
So often with alcoholism the person has to hit rock bottom losing family and friends before they will do something about helping themselves. Maybe she has to lose you. Have you thought of mocking her as a form of "tough love?"
You said that you thought "It's important to respect the beliefs of others". I'll agree that it is important to respect others themselves. But when their beliefs are harmful the beliefs warrant no respect.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 10:15:53 [Permalink]
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This sort of reminds me of the internet stock boom on the late 90s. On all the financial TV stations various analysts would talk up the internet stocks and there would be talk about how high it would go but very little about taking the money and running. I remember trying to warn people about the impending crash and practically begged people to sell in the months before the bust and the response was unanimously "You go ahead. I would rather get rich." No one wanted to hear the truth even though the bubble was more than obvious at the beginning of the 2000 and even late 1999.
People seldom listen to the naysayer when someone is dangling a golden carrot in front of their nose.
The title of this topic really wants me to answer: Hold their head under water.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 13:09:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
The title of this topic really wants me to answer: Hold their head under water.
How about slapping them upside their heads? Would that work?
________________________
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 17:07:04 [Permalink]
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Slater> Call the guru a “dream-pusher”, and you're right on the mark, I think. Instead of selling drugs, they sell dreams, hopes and promises of a bright future.
Yep, it's hard to tell True Believers about realism, if a bright golden carrot is being dangled in front of their nose. But where is THEIR own scepticism?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 17:40:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yep, it's hard to tell True Believers about realism, if a bright golden carrot is being dangled in front of their nose. But where is THEIR own scepticism?
Some have never learned how to think about things in that fashion. Some have it in healthy quantities until they 'hear what they wanna hear'.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2002 : 18:24:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
This sort of reminds me of the internet stock boom on the late 90s. On all the financial TV stations various analysts would talk up the internet stocks and there would be talk about how high it would go but very little about taking the money and running. I remember trying to warn people about the impending crash and practically begged people to sell in the months before the bust and the response was unanimously "You go ahead. I would rather get rich." No one wanted to hear the truth even though the bubble was more than obvious at the beginning of the 2000 and even late 1999.
If you want to read fascinating and humorous accounts of how human nature and stock market history repeats itself check out Charles MacKay's book "Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Volume I" written in 1854 and recently republished by Xlibris Corp. Specifically, check out the chapters entitled "The Mississippi Scheme" and "The South Sea Bubble" both about stock madness in France and England, respectfully, in the 1700s and strangely similar to the dot com madness of the 1990s.
"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a
deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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