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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2002 : 18:59:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
There can be no peace in the region, before Israel withdraws from the occupied Palestinian land. I've always wondered why people here in DK, who fought the Nazi-occupation during WW II are called freedom-fighters, while Palestinians who fight the Israeli occupation are called terrorists and militias.
That's just the bias of the west. To Arabs they are freedom fighters. It's easy to understand why the Palestinians resort to bombing to acheive political goals. It's the only option left to them unless you count Israel's insufficient peace offers which again the west does but they don't. Sharon, by the way, was a bomber of innocents himself in the 1948 war. I may have aleady mentioned that but it merits being repeated in light of his hypocritical denunciations of palestinian bombings and President Bush's assertion that Sharon is a man of peace.
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2002 : 19:10:01 [Permalink]
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Atomic> I will never condone the killing of innocent civilians. But I, too, understand the frustration of the Palestinian people. And the frustration at the Western World's very one-sided view of the conflict. To a point where any criticism of the Israeli governments actions are met with accusations of nazism and anti-semitism. Trust me, I know. I'm “persona non-grata” in Israel after my young days in Amnesty Internationals Students' group. For asking questions.
Sharon as a man of peace is BS! How on Earth can Bush call someone, who launches an attack on an entire people, because a few terrorists might hide among them, a man of peace? Well, okay, I can make an educated guess… But still. Cities have been levelled with the ground, the entire infrastructure ruined, food and medical helped refused into areas…
For anyone interested in signing a petition for International Investigation Committee on Ariel Sharon's crimes against humanity, this was forwarded to me:
http://www.petitiononline.com/warcrime/
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2002 : 17:57:39 [Permalink]
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Here is what find to be a good assessment of the "Arafat should have taken the Barak land offer" argument.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064500
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 08:50:43 [Permalink]
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It is also becoming clear from what I have been reading that a massacre did in fact take place in Jenin and it is quite obvious that non-combatants were targeted. That much was clear at the beginning. It's just sick.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
A day or two after the battle of Jenin, the news reported that the UN had to "beg" Israel to let in relief aid. When I saw this, alarm bells started going off. We're not talking about some arab relief agency that might have an agenda. This was the UN trying to reach the area with food, medicine, water and shelter.
What surprises me is that there's been so little outcry in the media. No one's hands are clean in this whole conflict, but I feel the reporting has been very biased.
An aside: it boggles the mind how little the average american knows/cares about what's going on. Our tax dollars are helping to fund the mess, and there's a real chance we could end up getting sucked in. The top news story for the last several days has been whether or not Robert Blake shot his wife. Go figure.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 16:52:05 [Permalink]
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Lisa> There's a general idea that most US Americans are kept terribly uninformed about their governments foreign policies. The reason for this eludes me. Is it due to the geographical position of the USA maybe?
Of course no one side is totally innocent. But that we even have to write that in our posts, show a level of “sidedness” in the entire debate, which does not further any solution to the conflict of the Middle-east.
The media here in Europe has started changing its perspective over the past month or so.
But why the /(%(%&!!! does so many people have to die before that happens? I mean, imagine for a moment being a completely hapless Palestinian, who isn't a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and have your entire home levelled with the ground, an NO ONE does anything?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 17:18:33 [Permalink]
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But why the /(%(%&!!! does so many people have to die before that happens? I mean, imagine for a moment being a completely hapless Palestinian, who isn't a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and have your entire home levelled with the ground, an NO ONE does anything?
These Palestinians who lost everything are going to be ripe for recruitment as suicide bombers. Who better than someone with nothing else to lose?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 17:21:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
But why the /(%(%&!!! does so many people have to die before that happens? I mean, imagine for a moment being a completely hapless Palestinian, who isn't a member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and have your entire home levelled with the ground, an NO ONE does anything?
But it happens all the time all over the world. It is the exception that somebody who is not directly affected by the caranage going on allows himself to notice what is going. The whole madness in the middle-east has just escalated so far that we can't possibly ignore it anymore.
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 19:53:01 [Permalink]
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People tend to have a sense of detachment when they watch somethimg that doesn't directly affect them. It was felt all over the US during 9/11 and it is being felt even now, during the mideast peace talks.
If someone doesn't send Arafat and Sharon to their rooms while more mature people (like 3 year olds) handle it, it may continue like this for some time.
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2002 : 22:52:18 [Permalink]
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There's a general idea that most US Americans are kept terribly uninformed about their governments foreign policies. The reason for this eludes me. Is it due to the geographical position of the USA maybe?
No, I think that as far as terrorism goes, we've had it too easy for too long. We became complacent and self-centered. What surprises me is that this attitude has continued after 9/11. People want to strike out, and they really don't care who they hit. Witness Falwell's rant. He chose to strike out at those he personally dislikes. "Do something" has replaced "know something".
The whole attitude we have here baffles me. The information is there. Sometimes you have to dig, but its there. Still, if tomorrow Britney Spears were to announce she was pregnant, the whole Middle East conflict would be relegated to page 3.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2002 : 01:52:03 [Permalink]
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I think the problem here, at least in the US, lies in the odd way the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is reported by our 'unbiased media.' Actually, the reporting is not odd, but normal.
Often times objective reporting falls to the cutting room floor, or finds itself stowed away in film vaults forever and ever. Our media has very high principles, until they begin to run into two strong walls. Both of those walls have a lot to do with money, and very little to do with right.
The first wall is legal. If a producer is about to air a story unfavorable to the Israeli gov't or unfavorable to the 'Jewish people' you can bet that network's legal dept. is going to have a person there in a moments notice to censor, or scrap the piece. The Jewish-American lobby is quite powerful, and even if a story is factual, they can take the networks for a long and expensive ride in the name of good PR. Can the Palestinian Americans do the same?
The second problem is market share. Most Americans have fallen in lock step with this wave of democratic nationalism, and anti-terrorism blood lust, just so long as the blood is spilled somewhere else. Let's face it. If you are a well to do Jewish person you have all the rights in the world to the Israeli democracy, and we love democracy - At all costs. Plus, Palestinians are 'undemocratic' terrorists, and suicide bombers, (Oh! I'm sorry, I forgot that they've become homicide bombers, but then again, aren't they all). Anyway, it won't make us feel good about ourselves to hear that there are two sides to every story, like not every democratic army observes basic human rights, and not every idiot that straps on a bomb is completely deranged. They may not have anything left to live for. That's the news we don't want to see. Or pay for!
I remember the old complaint from the right about the biased media, and you know what? They're right! The only problem is that the bias is toward ratings, and all else falls by the wayside.
Anyway, I agree, at this point there is too much animosity between Sharon and Arafat to move any serious peace negotiations along. Maybe, the CIA could reach into their old anti-Castro bag of tricks, and bring 'em both, and this whole mess to an end.
Ah, just kidding about the CIA. No, really...I think.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 17:11:35 [Permalink]
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Tim&Lisa> It may be due to complacency. It probably takes an US-American to answer that. Here in Europe terrorism is nothing new. It's been in England (IRA), Germany (Red Army Fraction) and Spain. This continent has been levelled by two wars.
It is also a choice of the media, of course.
The Jewish lobby is of course there. But the problem runs deeper than that. I read a background story in my paper the other day, about how the Israelis are so scared of new terror-attacks its almost driving them insane. And all the peace-activists into Sharon's waiting arms.
I can understand the Israelis and the Jews in general to a large degree. Looking at history, its one of prosecutions (pogroms) all over Europe since the Middle-ages, starting in the late 11th century during the first crusade. They were attacked during the Plague, were driven from cities or entire countries and didn't achieve equality until the late 18th century.
Prosecution does not automatically breed tolerance. Destruction does not automatically breed protection of life. It breeds fear, and fear has it's own ethics and politics.
The Israeli school system doesn't teach the kids about the suffering of the Romanis and Armenians during the Holocaust. All of that has one consequence, I think. That Israelis of today emotionally can't afford to accept the suffering of others – such as the loss of Palestinians today and when Israel was born.
It has nothing to do with Sharon and Arafat as such. They'll probably just be replaced by even more radical leaders. The rest of the world must step in now and take responsibility. Place UN Peacekeepers in the area, no matter how loudly Israel objects.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 09:38:05 [Permalink]
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Fine, then. Give the Palestinians Israeli citizenship, let the refugees back. Can't wait for the next election.
It was interesting to see the mention of a King David when I thought that it has been shown that David is a mythological character that never actually lived.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 11:25:44 [Permalink]
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Fine, then. Give the Palestinians Israeli citizenship, let the refugees back. Can't wait for the next election.
I don't understand.
It's a real mess. The choice between antisemitic genocide on the one hand, and the vicious expulsion and oppression of the Palestinians on the other, is not one I'm willing to make -- and I don't see a 3rd option with any chance of being considered.
quote:
It was interesting to see the mention of a King David when I thought that it has been shown that David is a mythological character that never actually lived.
I believe current consensus is that there was, indeed, a "House of David", but nothing approximating the United Kingdom suggested in the Old Testament.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 05/03/2002 11:28:02 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 11:38:17 [Permalink]
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Yes it is a real mess that gets worse and worse and worse but I can't help but remember when both parties were so close to a deal and Sharon deliberately provoked the Palestinians by visiting an Islamic holy site at just the wrong time. It's people like Sharon and yes Arafat that are the biggest immediate problem.
Still, i do wish people would stop referring to the deal that Arafat turned down as so good for the Palestinians. It was an offer but it was not in any way fair. People that like to repeat that rhetoric should take a look at the actual details of the offer to see why it was rejected.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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