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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2002 : 18:48:04
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After NottyImp and I have almost usurped the thread on Capitalism to discuss the Russian Revolution here's something that should be interesting to debate.
What is socialism to you? Is it a society where we're all called comrade Jones and wear grey cover-alls and live in concrete? An impossible utopia? A good idea, but humans don't like really good ideas? Or?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2002 : 19:10:23 [Permalink]
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I think that socialism is another ideal that is probably best never fully attained. The dictionary definition says that there is no private ownership and that the government controls the means of production. While I don't like this very much I like pure capitalism even less. I think the government should take "some" resources and share them with those that capitalism leaves behind.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2002 : 20:13:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
After NottyImp and I have almost usurped the thread on Capitalism to discuss the Russian Revolution here's something that should be interesting to debate.
What is socialism to you? Is it a society where we're all called comrade Jones and wear grey cover-alls and live in concrete? An impossible utopia? A good idea, but humans don't like really good ideas? Or?
One could say, Socialism is what we now have in the USA. The poor trying to take away from the rich who earn what they have. And it's getting worse.
We've always had the uniforms,*fashion and 'keeping up with the Joneses'. And the concrete as I've explained in other folders, is starting to cover up and connect more and more cities with no free space inbetween. Unless a dictator takes over and forces everyone to like and do the same thing there will never be a Utopia, mearly because everyone has a different idea of what that should be. Does that answer the question?
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**"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
(-- Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents.)
What a witch, with a 'B'. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2002 : 23:19:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
One could say, Socialism is what we now have in the USA.
Current economics and related policy in our country is a topic I'd have expected to have seen more debate of on this website, mainly because it's amazingly bunk infested (not surprising, as it's intimately linked to politics,) but also because it effects us all. Regarding socialist aspects of our society (welfare, etc.) I'll add the obviously paranoid remark that they exist mainly because if we went to pure capitalism (that is, we scrapped all that and let everyone fend for themselves) one wouldn't be able to walk out of Burger King without someone trying to jack their Whopper Deal from the blind side. Conservatives seem to suggest heading in that direction would result in a more motivated and efficient workforce, but I have doubts. I think we'd ethically deteriorate.
Ron White |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 01:35:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
one wouldn't be able to walk out of Burger King without someone trying to jack their Whopper Deal from the blind side.
Sorry Ronny, don't want you to think I'm ignoring you, would like to answer but am not sure what you are saying.
I know those are real words in the sentence above but they don't make sense, that is I don't understand what you are saying?
Can you explain what 'jack their Whopper Deal from the blind side' means? Never heard that terminolgy before. I know what a Whopper from Burger King is, but that's it.
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**"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
(-- Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents.)
What a witch, with a 'B'. |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 10:38:03 [Permalink]
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@tomic the definition you gave of socialism looks more, to me, to the definition of communism. This might be a dictionary problem from my side or a more cultural issue. The difference between the two might have fade away while crossing the atlantic  .
True communism as never been achieved because as it has been said in this topic it is an utopia. But the definition of socialism I got (perhaps wrong) say that it should establish a society based on equality, free from exploitation between social class and where public interest should prevail. I do not think that it has been truly achieved neither but that is more likely to keep individual freedom than communism from my point of view.
Seb |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 18:48:13 [Permalink]
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Ronnywhite> You had something like pure capitalism in the 19th century Great Britain for example. Even children working up to 14+ hours a day for scrap. It wasn't as much the workers snatching things out of the hands of the lazy rich factory-owners, as much as it was concern that future working-classes would be too weak, that instigated things like poverty houses.
Seb> Just out of curiosity: Why do you consider it a utopia?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 21:15:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
True communism as never been achieved because as it has been said in this topic it is an utopia. But the definition of socialism I got (perhaps wrong) say that it should establish a society based on equality, free from exploitation between social class and where public interest should prevail
Seb
Seb, you are right. From what I've been taught seems that there will never be socialism, I think, because there is no leader. In communism, there are dictators. They are in fact supposed to give up their power when the state is in order but so far that's never happened (that I know of).
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*Carabao forever. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 21:22:49 [Permalink]
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Actually it did happen. Daniel Ortega, who the US accused of being so horrible ,allowed elections and when he lost he gave up the reins peacefully.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2002 : 23:05:12 [Permalink]
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Snake> Obviously my attempts at humor "just aren't," sometimes. Translation: a petty robbery. When people are economically pressured, they do what they need to survive. In recent decades, there's been increasing instability in employment, particularly in the lower socioeconomic brackets, and these people need safety nets. With increasing adjusted costs of living (mainly rent,) record-low personal savings, and unaffordable medical/dental care, we have many people who just can't make it in tough times (of particular concern are single mothers with minimal education). Arguing that they're irresponsible after the fact is a moot point, and family unity's on the decline (especially concerning the impoverished and "working poor") so that's no longer the answer. If adequately paying jobs aren't there, or they just can't get/hold them, we have to do *something* for these people, lest our cities start to look like Tijuana, full of hookers and semi-corpses walking around with blankets. I just don't buy this stuff that it's usually a matter of laziness and all that… sure, there's going to be some abuse of the system (that's inevitable) yet I think we need food stamps, welfare, unemployment, etc. else our crime rates would skyrocket, and I don't think throwing more and more cops at the problem is the answer.
Omega> Regarding the reference to 19th century Britain, that's interesting, yet I have a hard time really comprehending the comparisons when other time periods and/or countries are concerned because of the differences in the cultures, relative standards of living, etc. To exemplify, what would happen in Japan in the present under certain economic circumstances might be very different from what may occur in this country, which is far more violent and disparate in attitudes, among other things. How that applies to other places/time periods, I don't know, some relevant points being in long-winded response to Snake.
Atomic> Cartoon strip from the time period- "Results from our nightly poll are in, the question being Do you approve of distributing condoms to prevent AIDS- 20% say No, 20% say Yes, and 60% say Reagan should support the Condoms in Nicaragua whether people approve or not."
Ron White |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 01:23:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake> Obviously my attempts at humor "just aren't," sometimes. Translation: a petty robbery.
Sorry about that, been there, done that, I know what you mean. It can be frustrating at times.
quote:
When people are economically pressured, they do what they need to survive. In recent decades, there's been increasing instability in employment, particularly in the lower socioeconomic brackets, and these people need safety nets. With increasing adjusted costs of living (mainly rent,) record-low personal savings, and unaffordable medical/dental care, we have many people who just can't make it in tough times (of particular concern are single mothers with minimal education). Arguing that they're irresponsible after the fact is a moot point,
It may be moot for those who are the irresponsibles. But we shouldn't keep quiet about it and put it aside for the next generation to continue doing the same thing. And if we keep bailing out the people who think they can live on 'other peoples money' it will never stop.
Who's fault is it that some people don't know how to save or live within their means?
There just happens to be a school bus drivers strick on, here in Los Angeles. The other night the news was out interviewing the picketers. I heard one of them say, 'we get $10 an hour, that's around minimum wage.' SOooooooo I ask, we the tax payer are supposed to foot the bill to pay them more because the poor driver took that job in the 1st place? Not to make this personal but, my room mate makes less then that and he's not complaining and our total household income is pretty close to the so called poverty level. We get by! If someone wants to make more let them get their butt to school and study to get a better job, instead of extorting it from other hard working citizens. Each time someone gets a raise, someone else in another job wants one too, and so on and so on, so nothing changes. Then the price of rent goes up, what a surprize! Should a bus driver make as much as a doctor who studies for many years to get what he has?
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and family unity's on the decline (especially concerning the impoverished and "working poor") so that's no longer the answer. If adequately paying jobs aren't there, or they just can't get/hold them, we have to do *something* for these people,
Yes, and that something is EDUCATION, not 'handouts'. There are jobs. Seems to me, people don't want to start at the bottom.
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lest our cities start to look like Tijuana, full of hookers and semi-corpses walking around with blankets.
Oh O!!! Too late. Want to come to my area for a free tour?!!! We even have billboards in Spanish for a touch of authenticity. And that's not a joke.
Some people don't want help either, I know that for a fact. I am on a committe run through the Superior Court that tries to rehabilitate misdemeanior ofenders who are sometimes homeless as well, while the program is somewhat succussfull there are a number of people who get in it who don't follow through. There was one guy who had continously been picked up for being drunk and he said he knew he couldn't stop until he dies. What are you goina do? Do we keep pouring money into trying to help those who can't or don't want to be helped?
quote:
I just don't buy this stuff that it's usually a matter of laziness and all that… sure, there's going to be some abuse of the system (that's inevitable) yet I think we need food stamps, welfare, unemployment, etc. else our crime rates would skyrocket, and I don't think throwing more and more cops at the problem is the answer.
Ron White
Sorry Ron, I don't agree. We don't need welfare*, we need education.
*yes some, but short term possibly, just not 'free' money(food stamps, etc.), because they know they can get it anytime for almost any reason.
As for crime, much of that problem could be fixed by legalizing drugs, therefore eliminating the need for more cops. Prisions, and other related expenses involved with the situation. (that's a whole nother topic, I guess)
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*Carabao forever.
Edited by - snake on 04/14/2002 01:54:06 |
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 11:24:36 [Permalink]
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Omega> I consider communism as an utopia because it can be achieved only if all humans being give up their self interest and I do not think it is possible.
Even if our western governments are far to be perfect as every body act in his own interest there is a kind of balance on the overall.
Snake>I agree with you on the fact that education is more important than welfare. But when you ask if the bus driver should earn as much as a doctor I think we can also wonder if the difference between the both have to be so great. In a society you need the bus driver as much as the doctor, is not it?
Seb |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 17:14:07 [Permalink]
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American Heritage defines socialism:
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The socialists I know of define socialism as economic democracy. This is where the people own and benefit from the means of production.
The U.S. is a form of State Capitalism, much like the Soviet Union. The State runs the market for the benefit of the elite. Someone here said that the poor rob from the rich. The exact opposite is often the case.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 19:08:46 [Permalink]
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I can't remember who said this, but it's worth repeating anyway:
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under Communism, it's the other way around."
What would Cthulhu do? |
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Blair Nekkid
New Member
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 21:30:07 [Permalink]
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I believe Winston Churchill said "Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Communism is the equal distribution of poverty."
Cheers,
Blair
"Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes!" |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2002 : 23:46:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake>I agree with you on the fact that education is more important than welfare. But when you ask if the bus driver should earn as much as a doctor I think we can also wonder if the difference between the both have to be so great. In a society you need the bus driver as much as the doctor, is not it?
Seb
Seb,
Excuse me but are you saying that a bus driver should be closer to a doctor in how important his job is and what he gets paid?
I will go on that assumption and answer. 1st of all we don't need bus drivers or hardly at all. If I were to state some of the reasons we'd get on another subject but we can talk about that later.
Next, yes driving people around is a responsibility but one need not have a lot of education to learn what to do, nor be of a high intellect to do the job.
A doctor, spends years in training, the cost of that education is not cheap. When a doctor is treating someone he has to have a lot of knowledge to make the right decisions. He has to carry a lot of insurance for when he gets sued, overhead for his office and staff is costly also, he has to take continuing education classes to keep up with the latest information, there's probably a lot more I haven't thought of that's involved with the profession. How can someone, the bus driver, who probably belongs to a union and goes home each day without a worry because his employer takes all the responsibilities of insurance and all, be compared to a health professional who many times is on call at all hours, ready to help a sick person?
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*Carabao forever.
And one more thing....
Don't know about you but I don't like the sight of blood. I'd rather be a bus driver for less pay. I hate little kids but I'd forcefuly tell them to sit down and shut up if I had to drive them somewhere. But I'd never as a doctor want to have to take care of someone who's gushing blood and in pain. I couldn't handle that and think doctors do deserve the money they get.
Edited by - snake on 04/14/2002 23:54:28 |
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