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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
 Posted - 09/18/2002 : 19:11:46 [Permalink]
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The people most likely to be uninsured are poor. Poor enough to receive welfare. Jobs at this end of the spectrum just don't provide the kinds of benefits that makes health care affordable.
How many middle class people are uninsured as opposed to the poor? Anyone got a stat sheet?
Of course health care is being priced out of alot of people's (welfare or not) range. Because the cost of the terminally uninsured (which I do equate strongly with the poor) is passed on to people like me.
It's simply galling to have to carry the useless. I know there are people out there not riding the system. But I believe that at this point, there are so many that it is a serious drain.
The system does nothing to get people to be useful. It rewards mothers that stay at home and squeeze out more kids. Some states actually pay a bonus for getting married.
Uh, excuse me, but that's money I EARNED. Remember that great american dream of working hard and providing for your family? Well, my family would be much better off not paying other people just to breathe.
Anybody can sit on thier ass and get health care because of those of us that don't sit on our asses.
I could have stayed high, dropped out of school, and sat on a couch too. Maybe have 4 or 5 kids. But I didn't. I couldn't afford college so I joined the military and launched a career. I chose not to be a parasite.
I'm only railing against professional losers here. Lifelong drains on society. I know bad shit can happen and people may need a hand. Great, go for it. But I am vehemently against paying people just because their parents didn't use a condom.
As part of a larger society, I understand that some of my income may be withheld to pay for social programs. But I argue that the programs should foster social improvement. Be a leg up, not a crutch. Some people will need more help than others, but think of how much better even that care could be if the terminally needy weren't an anchor dragging you down.
I'm a firm believer in earning your own way through life. I don't hide behind a god when things get bad, and I don't hide behind a welfare state to live.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2002 : 23:11:52 [Permalink]
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You can find some detailed statistics on health insurance coverage from the 2000 census at:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthin00.html
The page contains a link to a .pdf file.
Some excerpts which may have some bearing on the issue:
Percentage of uninsured by household income:
<$25,000: 22.7%
$25,000-$49,999: 17.0%
$50,000-$74,999: 11.0%
>$75,000: 6.9%
The only data I can see that pertains to "welfare" is that Medicaid covered 10.4% of the population. (Incidentally, that means "covered", not "consuming resources".)
There's an interesting correlation between how big a company you work for and the likelihood that you'll have employment-based health insurance, which provides the lion's share of coverage in the USA (64.1% of all covered individuals):
Employment-based insurance coverage, workers 18-64, by company size:
25 employees or less: 31.6%
25-99 employees: 56.0%
99-499 employees: 66.9%
500-999 more employees: 68.9%
1000 or more employees: 70.0%
So, it looks like quite a few of the "terminally uninsured" Solly so resents "carrying" aren't among the poor or unproductive, they just don't earn enough to buy coverage or they work for small businesses.
Now, can you provide some evidence in support of your assertion that the rising cost of insurance and health care is the fault of poor people?
"All things foul and ugly, All creatures short and squat. Putrid, foul and gangrenous, the Lord God made the lot." -Monty Python |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 00:13:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the most part, it is not welfare recipients who are clogging up the healthcare system. The cost of insurance premiums are so high today that the working poor and the lower middle class simply cant afford to pay them.
Who says everyone is entitled to the same care or any care. Maybe if some people didn't have so many children that they can't pay for......... etc., etc.
quote:
In case you didn't notice, I gave my own situation as an example. I make decent money.
We are in about the same situation as you Kil, in fact we probably make less household income.(just a guess) So, least anyone thinks, I'm not including myself in the group who can't afford medical care, that's wrong. But if it was my circumstance in life to be here and now, I can't expect others to foot the bill for my misfortune or choices in life. And yes, I take what I can get or what 'they' give when it's available, but I wouldn't have the nerve to expect or demand it if it was denied.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 00:39:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
There's an interesting correlation between how big a company you work for and the likelihood that you'll have employment-based health insurance, which provides the lion's share of coverage in the USA (64.1% of all covered individuals):
Employment-based insurance coverage, workers 18-64, by company size:
25 employees or less: 31.6%
25-99 employees: 56.0%
99-499 employees: 66.9%
500-999 more employees: 68.9%
1000 or more employees: 70.0%
So, it looks like quite a few of the "terminally uninsured" Solly so resents "carrying" aren't among the poor or unproductive, they just don't earn enough to buy coverage or they work for small businesses.
This is our situation, where ever it fits on that scale, for what it's worth:
The small company my room mate works for has changed ins. companies several times, I think it has something to do with the cost of the insurance they pay. The service is not good all the time. I used to work for the phone company a big company and over the years I've seen the coverage there become more difficult to deal with and the benefits worse. But if we had to buy our own ins. from what I've seen on a monthly basis there is no way in hell we could get it. And from what I've seen that doctors charge for a visit if ins. didn't cover it, we'd just have to die in street. Well, we probably pay for it but then we'd have to go without some other essentials.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 19:33:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
But if we had to buy our own ins. from what I've seen on a monthly basis there is no way in hell we could get it. And from what I've seen that doctors charge for a visit if ins. didn't cover it, we'd just have to die in street. Well, we probably pay for it but then we'd have to go without some other essentials.
Bingo...
Blame the poor all you want to but they are not causing the price of health insurance to skyrocket the way it is. Actually, I think the reverse may be true. The rising cost of healthcare is making a lot of us poorer...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 21:39:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
The rising cost of healthcare is making a lot of us poorer...
At these prices, why don't we get money back guarantees?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2002 : 22:30:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Blame the poor all you want to but they are not causing the price of health insurance to skyrocket the way it is. Actually, I think the reverse may be true. The rising cost of healthcare is making a lot of us poorer...
The Evil Skeptic
But it's like credit card abusers, which if you listen to reports are out of control. People who take advantage of what once was supposed to be for emergencies now use credit like water. Same for doctors, people with too many kids that they can't afford and people who run to a doctor for every little thing make it bad for those who really need help.
Just like the honest people who use credit wisely but are paying for the idiots who go bankrupt, people who need medical care can't pay for it because others are taking up the doctors time and not paying.
That may not be the whole answer but I do think it's a big part of it.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2002 : 22:19:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
people who need medical care can't pay for it because others are taking up the doctors time and not paying.
That may not be the whole answer but I do think it's a big part of it.
That's not the whole answer by a long shot. A drop in the bucket. The problem is too many doctors are getting sued. Malpractice insurance is going through the roof. In order to not get sued MD's, who have to pay for that insurance, are now calling out for more test. So, the doctors cost of operating is going up and the patients bill is going up to cover that and the additional tests. That, in turn, is causing insurance rates to go up. Is there something here that you are not getting or do you just need the poor to dump on?
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2002 : 23:27:33 [Permalink]
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As this topic refuses to die let me say that I believe that most peopel we think of as Hypochondriacs have not learned to properly interpret their own bodies. Some people have chronic problems such as allergies that they become preoccupied with constantly searching for a cure that will never come. The minute a miricle drug does Over the counter OTC it is not good enough anymore. Claritan and allegra that now are the mainstay for people with allergies are going to demand Clarinex and Zyrtec because for some reason if you need a prescription it has to be better.
People with gastric problems thought Zantac and Pepcid wer miricles until they no longer needed to see the docotr to get it so now they want Prilosec, Nexiun and to feel better.
Read a page in any Womans Magazine and you'll see everyone should be on an Paxil, Wellbutrin, Prozac or any of the other anti-depressives on the market. Afraid to speak in public? Take a pill. Worried about the economy, your job, how about meeting a friend for lunch. Take a pill. Pharmiceutical companies are making us into hypochondriacs.
Some people have a number of on going physcial problems that they predispsosed to and I see them regularlly I see in the office and they do seem to catch every thing that is out there and that is just bad luck but again most people just don't know how to read their own day to day variances to know if they are truly sick or not.
I on the other hand chose to ignore symptoms that I should have known were bad and am now battleing Leukemia. Could I have prevented it? No, but I may have been able to start treatment sooner but the truth is even doctors have to die of something and it looks like unless a car accident or West Nile Fever are in my imediate future the CLL is going to get me in the next 1-3 years. Instead of worrying about dying and being sick we need to worry about living and taking care of ourselves. Once a hypo finds out they are dying all of a sudden they refuse to believe it's true.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 02:27:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem is too many doctors are getting sued. Malpractice insurance is going through the roof. In order to not get sued MD's, who have to pay for that insurance, are now calling out for more test. So, the doctors cost of operating is going up and the patients bill is going up to cover that and the additional tests. That, in turn, is causing insurance rates to go up. Is there something here that you are not getting or do you just need the poor to dump on?
The Evil Skeptic
The more poor people who can't pay, the more doctors have to charge their other patients. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
The 'thing' I'm not getting is, what you are saying about more tests, that is not what is happening in the HMO we belong to. In fact they try to brush you off if you complain about something. Stick that in your pipe!
Perhaps in private practice insurance is going up but I would think HMO's have lots of coverage of their own, not like a single doctor has to have.
One great doctor I used to go to, went to Kaiser and I couldn't see her any more, maybe that was the reason. Hum! Ok, so you could be right on one point. If that was the case, that her costs were too high. But it still doesn't that mean poor people aren't driving doctors out of business. They are probably more likely to sue!
I do know that the doctors in the group we have now don't just do any old tests.
I just found a new doctor who is really nice, but she's mentioned how much paper work it is to get the HMO to do something. (she did order a test for me but I think it's because I was in pain, not because she wanted to cover her ass)
Maybe it's not like that elsewhere, I don't know what doctors you are referring to but it's not what I experience at least in HMO's.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2002 : 15:12:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
The 'thing' I'm not getting is, what you are saying about more tests, that is not what is happening in the HMO we belong to. In fact they try to brush you off if you complain about something.
Well, of course. Managed healthcare was a good idea. It probably still is. But most HMO's are more concerned with the bottom line than the kind of care you receive. Yet even at the affordable end, as HMO's are supposed to be, the prices are going up. They often strictly control testing and procedures to a point that is dangerous. This does not help the MD, many of whom will not work with HMO's because they put the doctor and the patient in jeopardy. (Plus they regularly screw the doctor out of fee's.) In fact, there has been recent legislation that is supposed to allow the Doctor more leeway in prescribing tests. Naturally, this will cause the HMO's to raise there rates....
By the way, in my area, the cheapest HMO is Kaiser. For someone my age the cost is over $200.00 a month. And that is before we get to the preexisting conditions. Add family to that and you quickly get into the $400.00 range. Add in those preexisting conditions and, hi ho, hi ho, to emergency we go...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2002 : 01:50:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, of course. Managed healthcare was a good idea.
What is Managed healthcare? Do you mean HMO's? If so, they are the worst idea. My company used to have a plan, one of many to choose from that you could see any doctor you want, anywhere. There were no doctor groups to choose from. They pretty much phased that out. So I use the plan Dennis has from his work. You are limited in the choice of doctor from a certain group. If you don't like any of them, TOO BAD. When you do finally get through to them and make an appointment you go there and wait to be seen as if it was a clinic. Which it is in some cases. I hate going to 'clinics', waiting with a bunch of people with little kids making noise.
quote:
But most HMO's are more concerned with the bottom line than the kind of care you receive. Yet even at the affordable end, as HMO's are supposed to be, the prices are going up. They often strictly control testing and procedures to a point that is dangerous.
Hey! Tell me about it. My former doctor at the HMO didn't pay attention to my complaint. It was my sister, an RN who had to tell me what she thought I had. She told me to tell the doctor and not until then did he order a test. I finally had an operation. My sister said if I waited, no telling what would have happened. But the doctor wasn't doing anything about it. I bet there are hundreds of stories like that.
quote:
By the way, in my area, the cheapest HMO is Kaiser. For someone my age the cost is over $200.00 a month. And that is before we get to the preexisting conditions. Add family to that and you quickly get into the $400.00 range.
The Evil Skeptic
$400 a month, there is absolutely no way we could aford that. Not when one makes less than $30,000 a year. Well, I take that back, we already don't go to movies or do anything like that for entertainment or that costs much money. Don't buy a lot of items that I think many people think are common but I guess we could cut out some food items to save money. LOL, then we'd need the doctors more because of malnutrition. You can't win!!!
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
Edited by - snake on 09/22/2002 02:03:02 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2002 : 10:32:46 [Permalink]
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We totally hijacked this thread. Sorry.
Kil made a great point about malpractice insurance costs. Lawyers in this country are divebombing the doctors without worrying about collateral damage. There's been alot of 20/20 shows about fraudulant claims.
I'm pissed about the poor because a good chunk of my tax money goes to support people to simply exist and create another generation of terminally needy. I wouldn't be so upset if my money actually accomplished some good. Social programs were supposed to help people get back on their feet or give them a shove in the direction of self improvement. It doesn't work.
And the more I have to pay for these people, the less I have to cover my family. As the population of poor sure isn't getting any smaller, the cost of paying these people just to exist will go up. Eventually putting ME into that very same catagory. Great, that's my retirement. We are increasingly a welfare state in the US.
I propose a trade with other countries. All those workers like the mexican migrants, that want to work hard and improve thier lot in life can come over in a one for one trade for some lazy crack addict with six kids living in the projects.
It's better to pay for language lessons and healthcare for people who want to work and are willing to do the jobs I sure as hell don't want to, than it is to pay for another generation of trailer park denizens.
It's really sad that with all the social programs that just being born American offers, foreigners that sneak across the border are often more useful to America's economy than our own people.
At some point you just have to cut the anchor loose. Personal responsibility is a concept being lost here.
Oh yeah- Hypodondriacs. Alot of it stems from needing attention. They always need to tell YOU about what their ailment is. Ignore a hypocondriac and their symptoms will get worse. They want people to be concerned about them. It's part of being a 'drama-queen'.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2002 : 22:16:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Some people have chronic problems such as allergies that they become preoccupied with constantly searching for a cure that will never come. The minute a miricle drug does Over the counter OTC it is not good enough anymore. Claritan and allegra that now are the mainstay for people with allergies are going to demand Clarinex and Zyrtec because for some reason if you need a prescription it has to be better.
And to think that these products went OTC to protect a profit margin. The patent ran out on Claritan and Allegra and the generic market was ready to produce the medication. To preempt monetary loss throught the competition with the generic market the manufacturer went OTC.
quote:
People with gastric problems thought Zantac and Pepcid wer miricles until they no longer needed to see the docotr to get it so now they want Prilosec, Nexiun and to feel better.
Pepcid still works great.
quote:
Read a page in any Womans Magazine and you'll see everyone should be on an Paxil, Wellbutrin, Prozac or any of the other anti-depressives on the market. Afraid to speak in public? Take a pill. Worried about the economy, your job, how about meeting a friend for lunch. Take a pill. Pharmiceutical companies are making us into hypochondriacs.
Some people need to be on anti-depressants. I know that some of my problems seemed insurmountable, things are evening out. Isn't that purpose of the anti-depressant, not to make you feel happy. Aren't the SSRIs less problematic that the MAOIs? In as far as side effects, etc.
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I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Archibald Stuart (1791) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2002 : 23:00:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
People with gastric problems thought Zantac and Pepcid wer miricles until they no longer needed to see the docotr to get it so now they want Prilosec, Nexiun and to feel better.
Pepcid still works great.
Oh, and yeah!
I used to take Pepcid and Zantac with perscription and then without, but they did 'stop' working. The drug insurance company I have insists that anyone taking a drug long term has to order it through the mail (or pay a much higher price at the pharmacy). So I have to go through the trouble of contacting the doctor, and make sure I get the order in and then worry that the US mail deliveres it before I run out. I don't know about other 'Hypocondriacs' but I only wish I could go to the local store and get something when ever I needed it. If someone wants to be so idiotic to go to the doctor just to say they have a perscription drug, let them. I don't think that many people do it that often. Wouldn't it be rather irresponsible of a doctor to keep handing out perscriptions that way too?
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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