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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2002 : 08:26:53
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I have been subscribed to a skeptic's newsletter for many months. The one I now subscribe to comes from SkeptIng@AOL.com. The last E-letter included the following:quote:
Nostradamus and the battle of Beckham's foot
by Simon Hoggart
The Guardian [UK]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,713739,00.html
"Yet another new book about Nostradamus lands on my desk. This one, The
Final Prophecies, by an Italian scholar and dingbat called Luciano
Sampietro, makes even more astounding claims than usual for the great man's
gifts of prophecy. For example, in quatrain 57 of his second "century" of
gobbledygook, he forecast the fall of the Berlin Wall thus: "Auant conflict
le grand tombera". This might not seem to mean anything apart from "Before
[a] conflict the great will fall" but as Sgr Sampietro notes, it doesn't
scan. Insert the word "mur" after "grand" and bingo, "before a conflict a
great wall will fall". Which conflict he meant is not clear, but you can't
have everything - not unless you're a Nostradamus scholar, that is." [bolding is mine]
I, who send perhaps a dozen e-mails a year, replied to this one: Why even add the first "[a]" to the Nostradomus' saying.
It seems to me that the very first level of skepticism would be "Was there a 'Nostradomus'?" and, if so, "Did he really write all that stuff?" and, if so, why not take it at face value without trying to give it more meaning or purpose than it has?
What's wrong with taking this phrase at face value? "Before conflict the great will fall" sounds perfectly OK to me just as it stands.
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2002 : 08:51:24 [Permalink]
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Yes, there was a Nostradamus.
Yes, he did write this stuff.
Yes, he was a charlatan.
The [a] was added because French grammar is different from English and needed to be augmented to keep the meaning the same in translation.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2002 : 10:15:27 [Permalink]
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I concede (before the face of your clearly superior knowlege).
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2002 : 11:18:55 [Permalink]
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I'm not so sure I'd buy that, Slater. The line was not "Autant le conflit..." or "Autant un conflit..."
With the article, it's ambiguous, because in French, "le conflit" could mean either "the conflict", "a conflict", or "conflict", depending on context. "Un conflit" means "one conflict" or "a conflict". But with no article, it would normally be read as in English: "conflict" in the general sense.
Of course, I can't claim any knowledge of Medieval French; but I can read modern French a bit. One thing that strikes me about the Nostradamus quotes I've seen (in either language) is that they seem to be deliberately ambiguous. Pretty clever, if you ask me; I bet he'd be splitting his sides if he could see how seriously his scribblings are being taken, even now.
-- Donnie B.
Oh, forgot to make the original comment I had in mind. Assuming you agree the line doesn't scan, why assume that the missing word is 'mur'? Why not, say, 'tour'? "Before conflict the great tower will fall" -- now it's about 9/11 - and it even makes more sense this way!
Edited by - Donnie B. on 05/17/2002 11:23:17
By the way, unless there's been a change in the spelling since Nostradamus' day, the word should be 'le conflit', not 'le conflict'. I changed the spelling in my post. Hey, at least I had the gender right!
Edited by - Donnie B. on 05/17/2002 11:27:25 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2002 : 11:25:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
With the article, it's ambiguous, because in French, "le conflict" could mean either "the conflict", "a conflict", or "conflict", depending on context.
Right, I was making the assumption that since the writer went to the trouble to put the [a] in he was trying to keep it in context instead of deliberately changing it.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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