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Kacey
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2002 : 03:28:13 [Permalink]
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ktes:
More "could have been" arguments. "Resemble", "appear to be", "look very much like" don't quite cut it as having
value as direct evidence of the physical existence of the animals you claim to be depicted. Neither does "depicts",
unless and until you prove that the label you attach to the depiction is truly what the artist intended to represent and
that it isn't the product of the artist's imagination.
Now it sounds like you're quoting from the pages of a book on evolution.....why is is all right for you evolutionist to use terms such as those but not for me?
Kacey
I've read the end of the bible....the Christians win. |
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Kacey
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 03:31:18 [Permalink]
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Slater:
Oh Kacey, Kacey ,Kacey whatever happened to 'Thou shalt not bear false witness?'
These are 10 blatant lies.
Please prove me wrong by supplying references as to where we might find any of these fairy tales. Websites,
textbooks, scholarly papers -- anything will do.
Sheeze, what's up with this guy? Instead of quick little come backs, why don't you evos show me where I' m wrong. I presented some instances and received no scientific replies back as of yet.
Kacey
I've read the end of the bible....the Christians win. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 04:35:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually most of the strata was laid down by the flood waters of Noah......think about it, a quick burial is needed to start a fossil.
Oh, come on...How was most of the strata laid down by the this great flood? Did you know that the geological strata is in perfect harmony with evolutionary theory? In fact, it is one of the main evidences of evolution, where the older the fossil, the deeper the strata.
If a great flood were responsible for the bulk of the strata, then we would expect to find one huge layer jumbled with every species of plant and animal known to have existed throughout all of natural history in that particular section of the world. It would be a virtual mega layer of assorted fossils--One perfect snapshot of every species that ever lived. (And I've heard the theories of Morris and Gish, and I would not advise going there....Actually, go there. That should be fun).
quote:
Now it sounds like you're quoting from the pages of a book on evolution.....why is is all right for you evolutionist to use terms such as those but not for me?
Kacey, you can use any terms you care to use. I would just advise that you use those terms carefully. You don't want to draw too much attention to your ignorance of natural selection, and science in general--Do you?
quote:
Sheeze, what's up with this guy? Instead of quick little come backs, why don't you evos show me where I' m wrong. I presented some instances and received no scientific replies back as of yet.
Again, you advertise your ignorance of the scientific method. You made the claim that dragons existed side by side with humans, and gave no rational proof. You made an assertion basically stating that if Mr. A wrote B down, then C should be true. In short, you haven't made any sense.
You made the claim--Now, you proove it. If you want your ten claims of dinosaurs existing side by side with humans to be taken seriously, then you will have to give us a reference or link or something, so that we can test for ourselves.
In other words, follow the words of 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 04:40:37 [Permalink]
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You seem to be woefully ignorant of the way this works. The person presenting the extraordinary claim (which contradicts repeatedly confirmed and established science) bears the burden of proof. It is not our duty to prove that you are wrong; rather it is your job to prove that you are right. We have called your sources into question, demonstrated your ridiculous leaps in logic and exposes the multitude of fallacies involved in the way you frame the issue, with no direct replies (other than obliquely accusing us of buying into a conspiracy that you have yet to demonstrate actually exists). What more do you want?
"The amount of noise which anyone can bear stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity." --Schopenhauer |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 06:25:16 [Permalink]
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Hi again, Kacey,
You can't take art, however ancient, as science, especally where it concerns a species of animal - ESPECALLY where it concerns a reptile. Have you ever seen a big, fifteen feet or so, King Cobra in a threatening display? I do some herpetology, and I have. Believe me, to the uninitated and/or superstitious, that sight can easily crank up a myth or two, and no doubt has.
As for the 'dino' art, what were the religous beliefs of the people making the pottery? Was it the Maya or the Aztecs who believed in the Feathered Serpent (who's name I've not forgotten, but can neither pronounce nor spell)? The dipictions of this god were pretty amazing, yet no evidence of such a creature have ever been found.
Orgines of the unicorn myths: As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on this one. I find as a rhino or an ox, it's something of a streach. All of the unicorn pics I've seen showed a sleek, graceful creature, which the above animals, comparitivly speaking, are not. I suspect that the jury will remaln out on this one, although I suspect some wishful dreaming on the part of ancient writers.
Noachican Flood: There is exactly zero evidence in the Geologic Column that this ever happened, as Tim has so well covered. I will add the question of: if there had been a global flood, what did the animals eat after disembarking from the ark? There's also the interesting speculation that if such a catastrophic event had occured, the Earth would be vastly different from what it is today. We and most other species might well not exist due to fatally diminished gene pools, asuming that everybody didn't starve to death, first.
Thoughts and thoughts....
f
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 08:18:24 [Permalink]
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Hi Kacey,
You might want to dig up a copy of "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell. It is a must read if you want to delve into the cultural and psychological effects of myths and legends in our everyday lives.
@tomic mentioned Mickey Mouse in one of his posts. Did you consider that a dragon to the Chinese was the Mickey Mouse of their culture? The fun with mythological creatures is that you can assign them any power or biological attribute. They don't have to be real. And therein lies the magic. Great camp fire stories. Great cultural lessons using imaginary beasts.
Are angels real? What form do they take? Are they all white gowns with wings? BTW, angels didn't sprout wings until the late Middle Ages when artists started depicting them that way. Before then, angels looked exactly like us and simply stepped or glided down from Heaven to do their deeds.
QUESTION: How high is Heaven?
ANSWER: Just beyond the reach of a man standing on the top of Mount Olympus.
Here are some other "correct" answers at about the same time The Great Flood story was being written.
* The center of human wisdom is the heart. No one knows what that gray stuff in the skull is for.
* There are four elements. Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
* The Earth is a circle not a sphere. The Earth is the center of the Universe and the Firmament circles above it.
* Heaven is "up". Hell is "down". Don't worry about the Australians "down under". They haven't been discovered yet, so there is noone else to confuse with concepts of up and down on a sphere.
* Sickness and disease are caused by demons.
* and on and on and on. But don't worry. Giving the wrong answer back then was only heresy, punishable by death. Isn't it nice to see how far we've come in tolerance of dissenting viewpoints. 
(:raig |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 09:27:53 [Permalink]
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In addition to the Joseph Campbell book mentioned by Mespo-man, I would suggest Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jarod Diamond. His explanation of how ideas and concepts migrated might explain the concept of 'dragon' spreading across geographic locations.
I'm afraid I find your ploy of asking about the existence of dragons (read as dinos by you) as an opening into young earth creationism less than honest. Your 'simple logic' has more to do with 'common sense' which isn't really as common as it seems and little or nothing to do with logic.
As has been pointed out by many, religion has little to do with logic.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 09:31:23 [Permalink]
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Sheeze, what's up with this guy?
What's up with this guy is that he is an actual card carrying scientist who is sick and tired of superstitions and magic being passed off as facts.
Instead of quick little come backs, why don't you evos show me where I' m wrong. I presented some instances and received no scientific replies back as of yet.
What instance did you magicos present? You made a bunch of vague comments without giving a single reference.
There is other cultures outside of China that have dragons and dragon slayers in their history.
And griffin, konaki jiji, hydra, scylla, ogre, harpie, cyclops, chimera, kraken, gorgon, giant, grendel, minotaur, basilisk, spinx and any number of monster slayers--so what?
There are ancient depictions of dinosaur like creatures etched in stones. For example one look very much like a picture of a dinosaur fighting a mammoth.
There are no ancient depictions of dinosaurs.
The ancient Sumatrans produced multiple pieces of art…resemble[ing] hadrosaurs.
The Sumatrans ? There is an island in Indonesia with people of this name but they aren't ancient. Sumatra has no dinosaur art from before the 20th century.
A Mesopotamian cylinder seal dated at 3300 BC. has depictions of a saurapod on it. Some of the details could not have been seen or determined from the fossil records.
You seem to have details on this one, date, intricacy of art, so you must know where it can be seen. Well, where is it?
An urn from Caria, which was located in Asia Minor has been discovered with artwork depecting mosasaurus
So? Mosasaurs (which aren't dinosaurs, but whose counting) have been known since the 1700's. There's a pot in Turkey with one it--so what? There's a coffee cup in San Francisco with a T-Rex on it (it's sitting right here on my desk) Nobody riding the cable cars is in danger of being eaten.
Many petroglyph (carved rock drawing) has been found depecting what appears to be dinosaurs,
Due to the strange fact that creationists revel in constructing frauds, and then believing their own lies.
Old Egyptian seals depecting dinosaur like creatures have been found.
Odd no one has ever seen or heard about them. Or do you think a god with the head of an ibis is really a velociraptor?
Cave painting found throught the word have been found with what appears to be pictures of dinosaurs painted on the walls.
If you can prove that Cro-Magnon painted with acrylics you might have a case.
Many clay figurines of dinosaurs buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico have been found
Along with many plastic ones.
Depictions of dinosaurs on ancient Ican stones have been found
Do you mean Quetzalcoati? That's Aztec and not Inca. Did you know that Quetzalcoati the "feathered snake" was born of a virgin, died and was resurrected? He descended to Mictlan, the underworld, and gathered the bones of the human beings of the previous epochs. Upon his return, he sprinkled his own blood upon these bones and fashioned the humans of the new era out of them. They were "born again."
Does this dinosaur sound like any myth you might have heard?
And by the by, Unicorns are not originally from the KJV. All medieval Bestiaries, which predate the KJV, have unicorns in them because all the earliest bibles say they are real. Not oxen, not goats--they had perfectly good names for both of these critters in the bible. The "good" book says that there are unicorns.
And the "good" book is wrong. But then it's wrong about most things, why should we be surprised about unicorns.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 10:41:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
[red]Sheeze, what's up with this guy? Instead of quick little come backs, why don't you evos show me where I' m wrong. I presented some instances and received no scientific replies back as of yet.
Kacey
I've read the end of the bible....the Christians win.
Asking you to provide your evidence (references to the things themselves, and not just your assertions and assumptions about them) is a scientific reply.
So far we've seen nothing but unsupported assertions and the assumptions that whatever interpretation you place on things you aren't even letting us see is automatically correct.
Checking your reasoning for basic errors is also a scientific reply. The questions of "are the observations (evidence) valid", "is the logic I use to derive a hypothesis to explain the observations valid?" and "what else does the hypothesis predict which I can use to test the hypothesis independently?" are fundamental to science.
You have been receiving scientific replies, to which you have been responding only with more breezy assertions and willful ignorance of the basic principles of reasoning and of the concept of burden of proof.
Since you won't allow others to scrutinize what you claim to be evidence in favor of your hypothesis, we have to start by looking at your reasoning. Once more, in words of short syllables:
Your argument is essentially this:
If dinosaur and men lived at the same time, ancient art could contain images of dinosaur drawn from life.
Ancient art contains images that could be dinosaur.
( I assume that these images are dinosaur and that they are drawn from life.)
Therefore, dinosaur and men lived at the same time.
This is equivalent to reasoning:
If George were zapped by a death ray from a flying saucer, he could be burned to a crisp.
George has been found burned to a crisp.
Therefore George has been zapped by a death ray from a flying saucer.
Can you see the fallacy now? Since George could also have been burned to a crisp in a house fire, a car or plane accident, an electrical accident or by self-immolation, among other possible causes, the fact that George is a crispy critter does not prove the flying saucer or the death ray.
You can't argue in the form if A, then B. B, therefore A unless you first prove that A is the only possible cause of B.
Unfortunately, I haven't the artistic ability to draw you a picture, but if you want to learn more about the science of logical reasoning, try Stephen's Guide to the Logical Fallacies at:
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/
I can't see how on Earth you can say that you haven't received any "scientific" replies when you've been asked nothing but questions which are basic to scientific inquiry...
Oh. I think I get it.
You mean replies that present the current state of scientific knowledge as dogma , argued by unsupported assertion and by authority, so that you can have a satisfying "IS! IS NOT" p*****g match.
This isn't a good place to find that sort of thing. There are very few people here who think so loosely and argue so poorly.
I'm sorry, but dangling a sterling example of intellectual sloppiness and smugness on your hook doesn't guarantee catching a reply in kind.
If you want a particular species of fish, you have to pick the right pond to troll in.
Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out.
Edited by - ktesibios on 05/20/2002 10:45:43 |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 10:56:34 [Permalink]
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Kacey,
quote:
Now come on, a skeptic like you really doesn't believe in those dates, right?
Since these dates have been measured multiple times and independantly verified using multiple techniques I have no problem at all of accepting these dates.
Here is an article you may find of interest and it should answer any objections you have about radiometric dating.
Notice the table about half-way down under The Age of the Earth. That's 12 different samples using 5 different techniques on rocks in Western Greenland all giving a date of ~3.6 bya. Now all of that agreement between different techniques and different samples speaks volumes for the reliability of radiometric dating.
quote:
Actually most of the strata was laid down by the flood waters of Noah......think about it, a quick burial is needed to start a fossil.
You can't be serious can you?
I double dog dare you to try and explain just one simple example of the strata and the fossils found in it. Any attempt leads quickly to asinine stories of magical sorting including the sorting of ALL the angiosperms (flowering plants) above the lowest levels of the gymnosperms (conifers) and ferns.
Another perfect example of how intellectually bankrupt flood geology is occurs just North of my location in Wyoming in strata dated to around ~30 mya. In this strata over a period of time (or over several layers of strata if you prefer) a perfect transition occurs between two primate species. The transformation includes the loss of the one of the premolars and several other anatomical modifications that slowly happen over time. In fact the transition is so smooth and so mosaic that the workers have a hard time of identifying one species from the other and the point of division is arbitrary, but the difference between the two ends is quite dramatic.
Now ask yourself, why would a raging flood sort these fossils into a perfect transitional series?
Finally as further evidence against such an idea, I offer this link to a debate I had with several creationists on another board dealing with flood geology and the Grand Canyon.
As you will see if you read through the discussion there is no suitable explanation of how during a raging global flood with astronomical sedimentation rates that scorpions, lizards, and other land dwelling vertebrate could leave fossilized tracks in the middle.
Debate (off-site). I am the author of this (screen name Always Searching).
Finally Kacey the final flaw of your argument is this:
If there really is all of this supposed artwork of dinosaurs in existence then where is all the artwork of the millions of other extinct species no longer alive today? If really of all of these species were existing all together with man before the flood then why no artwork of such organisms such as Brontotherium, Indricotherium, Gigantapithecus, or Ichthyostega just to name a very few?
How come we cannot find any verifiable artwork of any of these other species, instead all we have is the link between dragons and dinosaurs.
Later,
jmcginn
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 11:55:43 [Permalink]
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Kacey> You're not really reading the replies to you, are you? You use the Chinese zodiac to say dinosaurs must have existed alongside with humans, right?
But it doesn't bother you in the least, that the Western zodiac has a centaur depicted alongside with animals and people that also do exist?
“I believe a logical conclusion is that it was once witnessed by humans when all 12 were living.”
And the logic is that… ??? Since astrology is true then… ? Am I to assume that Chinese superstition is true?
“Perhaps like other people they thought it had meaning. If they thought it had meaning then why did they include a fake anima with the real? ”
Your deduction is fallible. You conclude that since the Chinese thought their zodiac had meaning, they must have built on real animals.
Can't you see the problem here?
The Greeks included both real and fable animals in their tales. Horses, cows and sheep exist. Do griffins, Minotaurs and hydras exist?
Because part of something which is superstition is built on facts, does not mean everything the superstitious claim is true or fact. Look at old sailors maps. There are elephants and camels, along with sea-monsters.
To the Chinese, finding “dragon” bones meant dragons existed. To them the idea of entire species of animals being extinct gave no meaning. They “knew” their Gods existed even if they couldn't see them. So naturally Dragons had to be powerful like Gods not to be seen. Only the bones were there. But that was proof enough to the Chinese, that dragons did indeed exist.
So other cultures found “dragon-“ bones and made the same conclusion. Dragons exist. Along with unicorns and other mythological creatures.
In my precious post I gave some examples of how this lead to myths. You must understand that at the time, the world was full of unseen Gods and invisible forces. To the Ancient Greeks for example, the Gods of the Olympos were very real. Even though there was no evidence of them whatsoever.
Can you see, how finding dragon bones would of course make dragons real to the people of these times? They believed in the things they could not see.
The problem with your list of “proof of dinosaurs walking alongside with man” is not only the above. You also give no links and no references.
You also miss the fact, that IF dinosaurs had co-existed with man, then why dragons look so different. There is a long way between the graceful wingless dragons of the East, to the fire-breathing winged reptiles of the west.
“Actually most of the strata was laid down by the flood waters of Noah”
A myth with no evidence.
You have been given ample evidence against your theory. As you can see from the replies, people have read your posts and answered them. May I suggest you read their answers. Yes, some people around here slap their foreheads at your claims. I've been around here long enough to see creationists dart in, toss a few comments, cry “you evil evos” and flee the scene without entering a civilised debate.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 11:58:23 [Permalink]
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Slater> "Odd no one has ever seen or heard about them. Or do you think a god with the head of an ibis is really a velociraptor?"
:)))))))))))))
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:27:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Sheeze, what's up with this guy? Instead of quick little come backs, why don't you evos show me where I' m wrong. I presented some instances and received no scientific replies back as of yet.
Kacey you are not wrong. You have shown us that people all over the world have had myths about creatures that we together refer to as dragons.
I freely admit that there are and have been myths about dragons. I would even go as far as to admit that at one point some people might even have thought that dragons were real.
You then guessed that they might have thought that dragons were real because they in fact did actually exist. You have brought no evidence for this theory.
There is as much evidence for the existance of dragons as there is for a large number of mystical animals. All over the world there have been legends of Giants, Unicorns, Firebirds and other mystical creatures. If in a few millenia some archeolgists discovered that many people today belived that UFOs are real, could they conclude from this that UFOs actually visited the Earth in 2002?
You don't have more evidence for dragons than I have for mermaids, werewolfs and vampires.
And you want to do what? To prove that everything we know about how the world works today is wrong. You want to take legends about big serpents to prove that the world is six thosand years old and every single methode of inquery that tells us otherwise is faulty.
Einstein said that E=mc² and now you say that he and many, many other scientist were wrong and the only evidence you have for this is that some primitives many millenia ago had legends about dragons.
You need evidence for a theory like this. Lots of evidence. I can't disprove any evidence you have brought forth for your theory because you have not done so.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:36:37 [Permalink]
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Slater> "Odd no one has ever seen or heard about them. Or do you think a god with the head of an ibis is really a velociraptor?"
I think it's a jabberwok, myself, but whadda I know? It seems just as likely.
f
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
- Albert Einstein
Edited by - filthy on 05/20/2002 12:41:03 |
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