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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2002 : 03:38:14
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I was shocked and unbelieving, when I first heard, that US lawenforcement had managed to narrowly avert a terrorist attack with with a radioactive bomb. I would probably have been unwilling to belive it, too, if I had been told on September the tenth that a terrorist attack that could have killed thousands had been averted, but still...
Now news is comming out that the attack was in the 'initial planing stages' along with any number of other possible plans. The idea, that Washington could have been the target, came out of a combination of the suspetcs familarity with the Washington area and making an educated guess. There also has been talks about the fact that he was known to US agencies for some time and had been under surveilence, that makes one ask questions about the timing of the arrest.
Have I had to much contact with conspiracy theories or is it reasonable of me to consider the possibilty, that this has been a PR-stunt?
And what do others think about this 'enemy combatant' stuff?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2002 : 07:07:30 [Permalink]
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I do not like this. The implications for us all are frightening.
Here we have a civilian citizen being turned over to the military, who, if I've read it correctly, can hold him indefinatly, curtail his access to a lawyer, and so forth. He has just lost virtually all of his rights as a citizen of the United States based merely upon all but unfounded suspition (the details will, of course be classified).
I have grave doubts as to the truth of his 'plot', or even if he's a member of Al Qeada (sp?). This administration, it seems, will do anything to keep the public stirred up. At least 'till 2004.
I've never trusted the government a whole lot at best of times. I trust it not all, now.
If it can happen to this guy, whatever his guilt or innocence, it can happen to any one of us.
f
Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it.... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.
-- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart (source unknown)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 08:28:02 [Permalink]
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When the news of this came over the radio my wife predicted that within a day the same (news) people who were complaining that the CIA and the FBI had dropped the ball with 9/11 would be complaining that Brooklyn's own Jose Padilla a.k.a. Abdullah al Muhajir had been arrested and handed over to the military. And she was right (as usual). His status as a citizen is being confused with civilian. He's not a civilian, he's a member of the al Qaeda, a foreign military at war with the United States, and as such is covered by the WW II saboteur laws.
This sounds like a job well done by the F.B.I.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 08:35:28 [Permalink]
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The funny thing is I seem to recalll Bush saying some months ago that US citizens would not get the treatment this suspect is getting. It was stressed that US citizens would go through the US legal system and now that a US citizen is suspected of al Qaeda they are not getting that chance. I'm sorry slater but this man is a suspect and it is up to the government to prove its case and to show, in court, that the FBI did a good job. Arresting him is fine but to not give him his day in court would not be American.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 08:56:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
This sounds like a job well done by the F.B.I.
That is exactly why I am suspicious about this dirty bomb claim. They have appearantly known of him for some time, arrested him about a month ago and now suddenly when they really need proof that they can protect the country against terrorism they come with this Dirty Bomb claim.
This discovery of the plan to use a dirty bomb, wich appears to basically consists of going through anything he ever might have come up with and choosing the worst possible scenario, certainly comes at a good time and it certainly sounds like a job well done.
I am not really concerned about his civil rights but more about the fact, that his status of an 'enemy combatant' and a source of intelligence, exempts them from actually having to prove their Dirty Bomb scenario.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 09:39:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am not really concerned about his civil rights but more about the fact, that his status of an 'enemy combatant' and a source of intelligence, exempts them from actually having to prove their Dirty Bomb scenario.
No, it doesn't. He still gets his day in court. Lawyers, evidence, innocent until proven guilty--the whole ball of wax. Only the venue of the trial changes from civilian to military because he isn't a civilian.
The timing does sound suspicious, but better to catch him now, as we've all been demanding that the F.B.I. and C.I.A. do, than after he irradiated downtown Washington.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 09:52:25 [Permalink]
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I went and read some details on this and it appears he was "lured" to the US. One could say that was to make the arrest and get the publicity. One could say a lot of things. It does seem a bit suspicious but I would need a little more info before I cried foul.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 11:47:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I am not really concerned about his civil rights but more about the fact, that his status of an 'enemy combatant' and a source of intelligence, exempts them from actually having to prove their Dirty Bomb scenario.
No, it doesn't. He still gets his day in court. Lawyers, evidence, innocent until proven guilty--the whole ball of wax. Only the venue of the trial changes from civilian to military because he isn't a civilian.
The timing does sound suspicious, but better to catch him now, as we've all been demanding that the F.B.I. and C.I.A. do, than after he irradiated downtown Washington.
He will be tried and they actually plan to bring forth something resembeling evidence that there was a serious threat of him planting a Dirty Bomb? Then I will take everything back.
Maybe I just read to much into News like this article here on CNN:
Rumsfeld: 'Dirty bomb' suspect may never be tried
It sounded to me that they caught a minor fish and after realizing that they did not plan to trial him anyway, started to milk the situation for all the good PR they could by making unfounded claims about the Dirty Bomb.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 12:02:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Here we have a civilian citizen being turned over to the military, who, if I've read it correctly, can hold him indefinatly, curtail his access to a lawyer, and so forth. He has just lost virtually all of his rights as a citizen of the United States based merely upon all but unfounded suspition (the details will, of course be classified).
This is disgusting, frankly. I understand the need for secrecy. I sympathize. I will give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this being a PR stunt, but:
What the fuck is up with this?!
quote:
US Attorney General John Ashcroft defended the position, claiming that Al Mujahir is being held under the laws of war and under a Supreme Court precedent which established that the military may detain a US citizen who has joined the enemy and entered America to carry out "hostile acts."
Well fuck all, he has the right to a quick and speedy trial. How fucking long can it take for them to gather evidence, anyway? Gag the trial, sure, but hold him indefinitly?
That is unconstitutional. A clear violation of the sixth amendment.
More information:
http://drudgereport.com/flash1.htm?
Bush promises more arrests:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/jun02/ap-terror-arrest061102.asp
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!Go Wings!
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 15:07:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
His status as a citizen is being confused with civilian. He's not a civilian, he's a member of the al Qaeda, a foreign military at war with the United States, and as such is covered by the WW II saboteur laws.
That is, the FBI and CIA assert that he is a member of Al Quaeda. They also assert that the specific evidence to support this claim has to be kept secret.
Now, in the absence of direct support or refutation, there isn't a whole lot to go on in evaluating the credibility of this specific accusation, but we can try to evaluate the general credibility of our glorious Organs of State Security and their political masters.
If you're trying to decide whether or not to lend money, one of the basic questions to be asked is "does this person have a history of meeting their obligations reliably?".
I would ask about the FBI (and CIA) "do these organizations have a history of competence, honesty, objectivity and acting on the basis of fact, free from political prejudice? Have they consistently shown a commitment to truthfulness or only a commitment to power? Can I accord their assertions greater credibility than others, or should I want to see some collateral?"
Now, it's recently been revealed- by FBI documents obtained after 17 years of court battles that when President Johnson was considering appointing UC Berkely president Clark Kerr as Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, the FBI worked to sabotage the appointment by sending the White House allegations that Kerr was "pro-Communist", allegations which the Bureau knew to be false.
BTW, you can read the whole story of yet another example of a supposed crime-fighting agency setting up shop as political secret police, including the original documents, at:
http://www.sfgate.com/campus/
That's just one bit of history bearing on the honesty and non-political nature of this agency. There's plenty more available, just do a search on "COINTELPRO".
Consequently, if I ask myself whether I should accept their assertions without question, particularly when the subject has bearing on the current Administration's political needs, I answer "NO".
Going higher up and considering similar questions- well, my word!
I can see no reason that I should be more inclined to grant automatic credence to John Ashcroft than I would be to do so for Kacey.
They may very well have a nefarious plotter here. A connection to the Bin Laden network ("Al Quaeda" is a name bestowed by others) is possible and even plausible.
But the idea that whatever they have is being played to the max both as a distraction in response to recent criticism and as a precedent for extending their "we can do whatever we want to whomever we suspect" policies to American citizens is also both possible and plausible.
Now, just in case I haven't gotten the argument well started, here's a succinct statement of where I stand:
The Bin Laden network is prepared to murder countless human beings. In their quest for power and control, Bush, Ashcroft and their ilk are prepared to murder every decent free thing this country ever stood for.
Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 15:22:52 [Permalink]
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What is interesting is that this guy has been in custody since may 8 and the government chose to break the story today. It's also interesting that the news is so full of the story about a "dirty bomb" yet so far no terrorists are known to have the material to make such a device. Planning is one thing. Having the means to carry it out is another. The more you read about this story the odder it becomes.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 17:24:56 [Permalink]
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Indeed.
Call me a conspiracy dingbat and "part of the problem" if you must, but thus far, I ain't entirly buyin' it.
I believe that our civil laws, based upon British Common Law, would work just fine in determining this person's gulit or innocence. The Patriot Act is a repressive crock of shit.
I don't like this one, little bit.
f
Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it.... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.
-- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart (source unknown)
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 17:27:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Have I had to much contact with conspiracy theories or is it reasonable of me to consider the possibilty, that this has been a PR-stunt?
Too bad you didn't make this a poll question. I would have voted for, nice way to say it...PR-stunt.
Right from the beggining it looked like they were trying to do a slight of hand trick on the American public. To take the attention off of other matters? Why this guy only, why now? Just doesn't add up. There's got to be so many more subversives out there, I hope they haven't given up keeping track of them.
If they ever were!
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*Carabao forever.
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Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 17:44:16 [Permalink]
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And if he was going to explode a "dirty bomb" he needed the material which I highly doubt he actually had. It's not much of a threat without the radioactive stuff is it?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 17:59:40 [Permalink]
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Are you saying that you would rather wait until he had all his material together to arrest him?
As a member of a military that is at war with the US being in the US and out of uniform is all he needs to do to be shot. Sounds like he's getting off easy.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2002 : 18:03:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
What is interesting is that this guy has been in custody since may 8 and the government chose to break the story today.
A bit of devil's advocacy if I may.
Besides the much-talked-about implication, it's also possible that law enforcement was after additional individuals and feared the press might jeapordize their cases.
quote:
It's also interesting that the news is so full of the story about a "dirty bomb" yet so far no terrorists are known to have the material to make such a device. Planning is one thing. Having the means to carry it out is another. The more you read about this story the odder it becomes.
I'm not sure this is much of a problem for terrorists. You don't exactly need weapons-grade nuclear material for this kind of bomb. See here.
Additionally, since the alleged purpose of a 'dirty bomb' is to cause fear rather than kill, places like radiation-therapy labs in hospitals or food-irradiation plants are also sources of radioactive material.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume
Edited by - phdreamer on 06/11/2002 18:03:39 |
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