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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2001 : 01:43:15
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2001 : 02:14:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
One organization is attempting to lure kids away from Ozzfest by offering half-price tickets to Six Flags amusement park on the night of the concert. (OK this is a viable alternative...IMO.)
Nice idea. Might get some kids to switch, but AFA I'm concerned, if you are gonna give me tickets to someplace, you'd better not only refund my money to the concert I wanted to go to, you'd better give me the tickets to that someplace for free. 
quote:
This has all started because a group of people believe that Harris and Klebold (of Columbine) were influenced by his music.
IMO, it is a cop out, and yet it isn't. It is in that the entertainment industry probably gave Harris and Klebold the ideas for how to do what they did. It isn't in that we don't know if Harris and Klebold would have done what they did, but in a different way.
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 02:43:25 [Permalink]
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My friends have all dubbed what I listen to as "Hate Music." In my own example, I have never considered performing any of the more deplorable acts described in some lyrics. (Although, I have never been fond of Marilyn Manson: I actually left a concert they were playing in.)
I, as a rational human being, am influenced by music only as far as I let myself. To assume somebody could be influenced enough by music to do something (s)he would not ordinarily do is offensive.
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 02:52:47 [Permalink]
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Interesting to think that most of the Trench Coat mafia didn't like Manson.
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 10:24:17 [Permalink]
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A glance at history will show us that people will do terrible things with the slightest of provocation. Blaming violence on the devils music is just another easy copout for the irrational.
No one is gonna get the answer from Harris and Klebold, so answers are produced for what can not truly be Known. Kind of like the impetus for religion. People want answers so they create them.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 10:58:26 [Permalink]
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When it comes to Harris and Klebold, I think a better question than "Where did they get they idea?" is "Where did they get the guns?"
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 11:22:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
(snip)
I, as a rational human being, am influenced by music only as far as I let myself. To assume somebody could be influenced enough by music to do something (s)he would not ordinarily do is offensive.
Oops! So you consider yourself offensive? ;-)
Think you may want to redo your last sentence. It sounds pretty shallow too - broad stroke as it is.
Boron, do you think everyone has your self-limits, a few may call it inhibitions, on behaviors?
What about mosh pits? Woodstock 2 violence? What about everything else? The Beatles changed a generation and the effects are still around today.
Today's use or finger pointing to music's influence can get over board sometimes, but it's not completely unjustified.
People can and are influenced by all sorts of stimulus; music, as anything else, can be part of it. A lot of people/kids do like to emulate their role models. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say music can contribute to unacceptiable behavior for a number of the naive who participate just has it can also have a positive effect.
Ever look-read into group hero-worship/social-dynamics/tribalism/fanatism?
Psychology 101?
Years ago, I recall seeing a few rock concerts. The audience up front would be in such a frenzy, the band could tell them to tear the stadium down and they'd do it. I've heard/read that comment for years. People caught up in the moment. Some go over the edge. It happens. Doesn't make it right, but it happens. When the bad behavior doesn't occur, then it's a great time. Influences.
I can listen to music then go on my way. Whereas a large number of cliques feel the need for group idenity, which can include a total make-over, - of outer dress, shared ideas, behaviors, - some can be quite anti-social.
Music is just one vehicle of influence. There are hundreds more in the human arena.
People act on their impulses/beliefs. For some music can be a powerful influence/contributor, good or bad.
Some can follow a stupid little philosophy and kill themselves so their souls will journey up to the UFO trailing a
comet. (Heaven's Gate)
What's in a group's (or musicians) message? What are they trying to get across? What might the lunatic fringe do, if anything?
"You are what you eat"
"You slowly become the people you worship." - unknown |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 11:45:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
...This has all started because a group of people believe that Harris and Klebold (of Columbine) were influenced by his music. ...
I think we're on the right track here.
Ban Marilyn Manson because Harris and Klebold may have listened to it.
Ban the music that McVeigh listened to, the music that Kaczynski listens to, and Koresch, and Jim Jones, and the Heaven's Gate group.
While we're at it, better get rid of the Beatles ("Helter Skelter" and Charles Manson)...eliminate rap (just look at all the inner-city violence!)...not to mention the ragtime and/or big band music that the gangsters of the 30s might have heard.
And don't forget that Alex did his ultraviolence to the strains of the Glorious Ninth.
Let's forget everything we know about personal responsibility...let's forget about the necessity of having parents who actually raise their kids rather than just producing them...let's forget it all and just go after the music.
Makes sense, right?
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 11:52:20 [Permalink]
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Gee, I was thinking of the free speech issue. Tho, I understand the psychological effects of the group dynamic. There were other factors in the Columbine shootings. 1. They wanted a higher body count than previous school shootings, 2. They had plans in effect to create bombs (these didn't go off), 3. The police failed to act on reports made against Harris and Klebold prior to the shootings, 4. No one took their website seriously (they did have their plans and discussions of the shootings on it), 5. They were apparently heavily influenced by some movies and video games, 6. People failed to consider them a threat, 7. They didn't have or lacked the capacity to determine a better course.
As far as Manson and Ozzfest. Some of these people want to ban Manson from Ozzfest and/or censor what he can and can not say in his lyrics. This is what I take issue with. Limiting a persons right to free speech, whether it is something we want to hear or not is wrong and goes against one of the amendments in our Bill of Rights. Should we control Manson's music and ban it and his right to free speech or no?
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 12:13:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
(snip)
As far as Manson and Ozzfest. Some of these people want to ban Manson from Ozzfest and/or censor what he can and can not say in his lyrics. This is what I take issue with. Limiting a persons right to free speech, whether it is something we want to hear or not is wrong and goes against one of the amendments in our Bill of Rights. Should we control Manson's music and ban it and his right to free speech or no?
About all I can think of is local obsenity laws could kick in. Up to the courts and how artsy/enforcing the local cops are feeling.
Personally hate to see any money go into that slime Mason's pocket.
Edited by - randy on 06/21/2001 12:37:39 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 12:51:02 [Permalink]
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Zandermann wrote:
quote:
I think we're on the right track here.
Ban Marilyn Manson because Harris and Klebold may have listened to it.
Ban the music that McVeigh listened to, the music that Kaczynski listens to, and Koresch, and Jim Jones, and the Heaven's Gate group.
While we're at it, better get rid of the Beatles ("Helter Skelter" and Charles Manson)...eliminate rap (just look at all the inner-city violence!)...not to mention the ragtime and/or big band music that the gangsters of the 30s might have heard.
And don't forget that Alex did his ultraviolence to the strains of the Glorious Ninth.
Let's forget everything we know about personal responsibility...let's forget about the necessity of having parents who actually raise their kids rather than just producing them...let's forget it all and just go after the music.
Makes sense, right?
By that time we could then all join the Amish on their front porches and eat vanilla ice cream, unless that's banned too!
And too, we've been seeing the the courts looking at culpability with the unregulated gun manufacturers, - and as far as that goes just about everyone else AND their dog.
I wasn't talking about banning anyone, Zandermann. Just comments about influences.
======
Sue 'em all, let the courts sort 'em out...seems to be. Sigh of the times.
BUT.......sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not so good.
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 13:05:52 [Permalink]
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Ozzfest is a private venture, yes? If so, I don't see what the freedom of speech issue is. If the promoter is trying to drop a band, then that's just a contract issue, for whatever reason.
I have no TV (not for 15 years), and the local papers have no mention of what this is even remotely about. Is someone trying to pass a law to keep wacko hienie-rockers out of town?
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture.
Edited by - Bozola on 06/21/2001 13:12:04 |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 13:37:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
I wasn't talking about banning anyone, Zandermann. Just comments about influences.
I wasn't responding to your post, Randy...didn't mean to imply that I thought you were talking about banning anything.
My rant was inspired by the crack-brain idea that somehow stopping Manson from using some lyrics or some songs at a concert would stem the tide of misinformed (malformed ethically?) people committing violence...that the way to short-circuit violence-prone people is to eliminate "bad" influences...that somehow criminals could be absolved of their guilt because of their music, or their movies, or their books.
I listen to Wagner, but I haven't had the urge to invade Poland in a long time. 
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 14:06:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I wasn't talking about banning anyone, Zandermann. Just comments about influences.
I wasn't responding to your post, Randy...didn't mean to imply that I thought you were talking about banning anything.
My rant was inspired by the crack-brain idea that somehow stopping Manson from using some lyrics or some songs at a concert would stem the tide of misinformed (malformed ethically?) people committing violence...that the way to short-circuit violence-prone people is to eliminate "bad" influences...that somehow criminals could be absolved of their guilt because of their music, or their movies, or their books.
I listen to Wagner, but I haven't had the urge to invade Poland in a long time.
(put laugh-track here! :-D)
Yepper! Mars, the Bringer of War - Gustav Holst....sure brought a lot of death and destruction to this planet!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 15:43:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ozzfest is a private venture, yes? If so, I don't see what the freedom of speech issue is. If the promoter is trying to drop a band, then that's just a contract issue, for whatever reason.
I have no TV (not for 15 years), and the local papers have no mention of what this is even remotely about. Is someone trying to pass a law to keep wacko hienie-rockers out of town?
Um, yeah, Ozzfest is a private venture - a weekend long concert of rock bands. The promoters of Ozzfest aren't trying to ban Manson, a group of private citizens are trying to have him and his music banned period. They don't want his music at Ozzfest or played on the radio. There are a few extremists in the group that oppose Manson that want to completely ban his right to write music with the lyrics he uses. Because in their opinion the lyrics are morally corrupt.
I don't like Manson's music, however, I don't believe that passing laws banning Manson and his music are appropriate.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2001 : 17:08:19 [Permalink]
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Hi,
I don't have much experience with Manson's music. I've only heard a couple of songs (and one was a cover of an old Eurithmics tune). Regardless of my opinion, the man has the constitutional right to write or sing any lyrics he feels the desire to.
I don't believe that hateful songs are the real issue here though. Marilyn Manson appears to some as a homosexual (gives himself the name Marilyn, wears makeup & womens clothes in concert etc.). I believe what you have there are a group of homophobes who, realizing that if they attacked homosexual-like behavior, most people would ignore them or agree with his right to be whatever he wanted. They need to justify their hate by linking him to something unjustifiable, that is the Columbine shooting incedent.
I've seen this type of thing before. Remember back in the 80's with the "backward messages" on Black Sabbath and other *undesirable* bands records? The real issue was that certain groups of people (I think we all know who), felt that heavy metal and hard rock bands were evil. They justified their hat for this type of music by creating the fear that kids were undergoing subliminal mind control and doing things that they would not otherwise do.
If these people are stood up to, then their true motives eventually come through.
Regards,
Greg.
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