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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2001 : 17:33:57
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I found this cool website that demonstrates that there are Christian Skeptics. I haven't read everything here, but they go into a lot of stuff including astronomy(Face on Mars, Moon of Mars, Velikovsky), Kent Hovind, the Shroud of Turin and the like. Check it out!
Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies
http://hometown.aol.com/ibss1
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2001 : 05:05:51 [Permalink]
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Do they also debunk the existance of god?
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 06:48:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
(@tomic) I found this cool website that demonstrates that there are Christian Skeptics. I haven't read everything here, but they go into a lot of stuff including astronomy(Face on Mars, Moon of Mars, Velikovsky), Kent Hovind, the Shroud of Turin and the like. Check it out!
Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies
http://hometown.aol.com/ibss1
Yes, there are Christian skeptics, just as there are skeptics who are Jewish, Hindu, Sufi...just as there are skeptics with no religious beliefs.
Matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet a bundle that there are more Christian skeptics than there are anti-science fundamentalists ... certainly more than the number of fruitcakes who are hanging on Hovind's every word, or waiting for Hoagland's latest attempt to keep the Face on Mars scam going.
What you have found, @tomic, is a webpage from someone (some group) who is much more mainstream than the young-Earthers and the "Truth swallowing Darwin" crowd.
There are quite a few people who have managed to maintain a scientific/skeptical mindset at the same time they believe and participate in religious belief.
However...having said all that...I *do* concede that they need to learn about eye-strain (bright green background ??!!)
quote:
(bestonnet_00) Do they also debunk the existance of god?
Not possible to prove scientifically either way...some choose to believe, some do not.
What everyone needs to keep in mind is the fact that religious belief does not necessarily *include* or *negate* critical thinking or a scientific frame of reference.
Edited by - Zandermann on 06/26/2001 06:49:26 |
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 13:26:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
What everyone needs to keep in mind is the fact that religious belief does not necessarily *include* or *negate* critical thinking or a scientific frame of reference.
Bingo!!, It seems to me that some have become so enamored of the arguments against religion that they feel any participation in religion is evidence of ignorance. Sort of like Atheist fundies.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 13:32:09 [Permalink]
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That is precisely why I posted this link.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 11:38:18 [Permalink]
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I agree, but it is revealing how many people (I call them closet apostates) undergo an incremental shift in their ideological reading of a particular religion.
For instance, many Christians tend to personally and collectively re-interpret scriptures so as to make homosexuality okay, or begin to see little evidence for the proposition of hell etc. The question is, very much as with pantheism, just how minimalist must a religious conviction be before it is no conviction at all?
If this sounds cynical, it's because I am extremely doubtful of nobel intentions on their part. Seems to me they want their bread buttered on both sides: "Oh of course evolution makes sense, but that doesn't mean God does not love us" Oh yeah? By buying into rational skepticism's products (i.e. science), you are implicitly buying into its method.
Find your own damned answers! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 12:01:03 [Permalink]
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If by religion, you mean a belief in god or gods, then it is not out of ignorance, maybe, but it is a lack of critical thinking in that area. One can be skeptical in some areas and not others.
quote:
quote:
What everyone needs to keep in mind is the fact that religious belief does not necessarily *include* or *negate* critical thinking or a scientific frame of reference.
Bingo!!, It seems to me that some have become so enamored of the arguments against religion that they feel any participation in religion is evidence of ignorance. Sort of like Atheist fundies.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 10:51:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
What everyone needs to keep in mind is the fact that religious belief does not necessarily *include* or *negate* critical thinking or a scientific frame of reference.
quote:
Bingo!!, It seems to me that some have become so enamored of the arguments against religion that they feel any participation in religion is evidence of ignorance.
I used to find that idea quite appealing. However, it became clear to me that religion, historically, did in fact claim to reveal truths about the way the world works. It can be seen as a pre-scientific method of reality-checking. Nowadays, many religious folk delineate religion's purview as one of moral "truth", or other, more psychological matters. Given this view, it would seem as though science, with its interrest in the natural world, and religion, with its interrest in the moral world, can co-exist, and are not mutually exclusive.
The catch is that despite religion's circumscription in terms of scope of influence, its method remains the same: some ideas are sacred, and not open to falsification, science admits of very few such "sacred cows".
I do not see these 2 world-views living comfortably side-by-side without some serious irrational antics...
Find your own damned answers! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 11:20:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I do not see these 2 world-views living comfortably side-by-side without some serious irrational antics...
Yes, I was quite surprised with Steven J. Gould and his N.O.M.A. It sounds like something an Apologist would espouse.
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2001 : 13:02:05 [Permalink]
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However, it became clear to me that religion, historically, did in fact claim to reveal truths about the way the world works. It can be seen as a pre-scientific method of reality-checking.
What I find interesting was the all encompassing use of Authority
Reality was checked not against itself but against official policy. Something, oddly enough, that fundis regularly accuse scientists of. The Church adopted a slightly revised Aristotelian worldview and that was that. Monks who would attempt to learn things by "the scientific method" were subject to sanctions. An odd way for a (Western) religion to behave. Only Pythagoreanism had acted this way before.
But it is S.O.P. for a military unit. Follow orders soldier. The military works best this way.
When you consider that Christianity as we know it (my contention is that this is all the Christianity there ever was, but I'll drop that for now) comes into existence at the Battle between Constantine and Maxentius as a military ploy. At Nicaea, where they oust the Donatists and the followers of Arius, the church is already organized in exactly the same fashion as the Mithric Chaplains Corps of the Roman Legion. Wearing the same uniforms as the Mithrians with only a slight change in insignia. (The "Sword of Truth" on the back of the doublet becomes a cross). Members of the clergy have "ranks" just like the legions. And we all have "standing orders."
So my guess is that this "anti-science" business is not a religious imposition but rather a military one.
Nowadays, many religious folk delineate religion's purview as one of moral "truth", or other, more psychological matters.
I think an analogy could be that of a great ancient building that has crumbled to ruins, leaving people picking through the rubble looking for anything of value. This great collapsed building is the Universal Catholic and Apostolic Church. It reached into and controlled every aspect of everyone's life in Europe for a thousand years (at one point in the Middle Ages it even dictated what clothes a person could own depending on their station (military term) in life).
The rubble and debris is the thousands of Protestant sects that there are in the world today. The grandeur of the Gothic Cathedral is replaced by a chapel with masonite paneling and plastic crack 'n peel stained glass. The mystery of the transubstantiation is replaced by a guy on TV pretending to talk in tongues while wearing a cheap powder blue suit.
People wander around this wreckage looking for something of value under the collapsed system. "Please, tell me what to do. Tell me how to act and think. I need structure." But it's not really there any more. Just a heap of thousands of pieces that don't fit together. Morals? Morals change with every piece of rubble (sect) you pick up.
Given this view, it would seem as though science, with its interrest in the natural world, and religion, with its interrest in the moral world, can co-exist, and are not mutually exclusive.
It's time to leave this rubbish heap.
There is a new edifice--Science. This time we have built one with it's foundations set in reality. This one should continue standing.
I do not see these 2 world-views living comfortably side-by-side without some serious irrational antics... Amen.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2001 : 08:49:14 [Permalink]
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Man, did Hovind get bodyslammed or what?! There are few things I enjoy better than seeing that prime doofus get a new arsehole cut into him, especially if it's done by fellow christians. That part of the site is definitely a keeper.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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