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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
 Posted - 07/30/2002 : 00:26:31
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I had heard of this concept before but my poor husband (some of you may not know but he was a Roman Catholic priest when we met)was at a gas station the other day and the car in front of him had a Jews For Jesus bumper sticker on it. He was intrigued and asked the woman about it. She explained that she was a Jew who after reading the research had come to agree that Jesus was indeed the Messiah after all. OOPS!!! When D asked her if that didn't make her a Christian she was shocked because obviously (to her, D is still confused) it makes her even more of a Jew then before. After all the Messiah came to save the Jews not Christians. She then told him she couldn't explain it all to him just then but he should check into it because then he would see the error of any belief system he had and become a Jew For Jesus too.
From my limited understanding the Apostle Paul was really a Deceiver and set out to thwart the work Jesus was here to do. He took the words of Jesus and being of Roman and not real Jewish heritage he based the teachings on Pagan ideals and set up a whole new religion rather then just correct the few problems in the Jewish Teachings of the time. He used the old "the end of the world is at hand" trick to get people to join his new church and ruin the true meaning of Jesus' teachings.To be a better Jew. You see the point. Again the mankind was led astray from salvation.
What bothers me is here is yet another group of people telling everyone else why their way is the only way to ever lasting paradise. Which couldn't have been that great to start with or else why would Eve had been bored enough to take a bite of the apple just to get her and Adam thrown out in the first place.
In the past 10 days I have had a 7 Day Adventist, Mormon and several Fundamentalist let me know my time is running out because like Paul 2000 years ago the end is at hand ...again. And guess what? Even if I weren't an Atheist I wouldn't be going anyway.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission!
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2002 : 01:14:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Which couldn't have been that great to start with or else why would Eve had been bored enough to take a bite of the apple just to get her and Adam thrown out in the first place.
Paradise for the the fundies seems to be a state of total ignorance.
In that case their path might be the right one...
I wouldn't be surprised if Paul was the true founder of Christianity, with or without a real Jesus. Most fundies seems to prefer his bigotry to the occasional philanthropy of the gospels anyway.
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 17:18:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Paul was the true founder of Christianity, with or without a real Jesus
As I tried to say before, there would not be a Christianity if it were not for the Jews.
What do you think Christ means? Of course Jesus had nothing to do with it. Anyone can be a christ. (just like anyone can be a Buddha). Somehow people mix up the individual person and associate them with the concept of the religion.
A christ was part of the Jewish religion, so how can one say xians are not Jewish if they are Christian? I'm willing to say Christianity is a branch of the Jewish religion but it's not by itself apart from it.
If you consider Paul a founder, then it's the same as Mohamud when he branched off from the christians. But it's all from the same root, and IMO therefore has the same premise of that believe (one (and the same) god).
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 19:11:04 [Permalink]
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As I tried to say before, there would not be a Christianity if it were not for the Jews.
Christianity has almost nothing to do with Judaism; in fact its basic instruction is extremely hostile towards the Jews, as one would expect Romans to be at the time.
Titus 1 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
In Thessalonians 2:14 Paul says
For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2:15
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
In John 19:7 you find the Jews killing Jesus
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
The hatred of Jews goes on and on in the teaching of Christ.
What do you think Christ means?
It means the anointed one in Greek. It is not a word at all in Hebrew. Comes from the god Christna's name. It's pagan not a Jewish concept, not a Messiah.
Anyone can be a christ. (just like anyone can be a Buddha).
Anyone can be a Buddha. Any one can be a Jewish Messiah. But to say the same of christ is blasphemy and can get you killed for even thinking it.
A christ was part of the Jewish religion,
A christ was never part of the Jewish religion. It is a pagan concept. Messiahs are Jewish. Jesus does nothing a Messiah was supposed to do.
If you consider Paul a founder, then it's the same as Mohamud when he branched off from the christians.
The writings of "Paul" reflect the work of at least three different authors. None of whom was Jewish but all Roman and all anti-Semitic. Also I don't think you can really credit the Pauls with inventing Christianity as the writings of Paul reflect a Gnostic version of Jesus and not the orthodox one adopted in 325 CE. Paul does not seem to even know the life story of Jesus or when he lived.
But it's all from the same root, and IMO therefore has the same premise of that believe (one (and the same) god).
The Christian god bears almost no resemblance to the Jewish one. Different personality, different laws, he's triune while the Jewish one is singular, different after life, different Sabbath.
The story is set in Israel with Jesus as a rabbi but Jesus does nothing that is Jewish after he is circumcised except occasionally quotes the OT without giving it credit. Rather he follows the tenets of Mithraism--the leading religion of Rome. Including his birth, baptism, Sermon on the Mount, loaves & fish, death and resurrection. He even goes so far as to cause a riot in the Jewish holy of holys.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 00:31:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
What do you think Christ means?
It means the anointed one in Greek. It is not a word at all in Hebrew. Comes from the god Christna's name. It's pagan not a Jewish concept, not a Messiah.
Excuse ME! But what dictionary are you using?
(if you think I'm wrong then write to the book company)
And I still say, it's the same damn god. While I don't think the thought of one god was orginal to the Jews, the god of todays world, the Jews and the xians god, is from the same concept. Who ever belongs to whatever sect can think of it in any manner they want but it's one (and the same) god, an idea that started from long before Jesus the Christ.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
*Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
Homer Jaye S. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 00:48:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
The writings of "Paul" reflect the work of at least three different authors. None of whom was Jewish but all Roman and all anti-Semitic. Also I don't think you can really credit the Pauls with inventing Christianity as the writings of Paul reflect a Gnostic version of Jesus and not the orthodox one adopted in 325 CE. Paul does not seem to even know the life story of Jesus or when he lived.
Of course a lot of people are responsible for the development of the Christian dogma(s) and these people got their inspiration from different sources.
Are there any historical christian sources that predates Paul?
(Guess I'd better catch up on the "Did Jesus Really Exist?"-threads.)
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 08:51:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
But what dictionary are you using?
(if you think I'm wrong then write to the book company)
Dictionaries give you current usage. Jesus was given the title "the Christ" seventeen hundred years ago. I gave you the usage from then.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 18:09:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
What do you think Christ means?
It means the anointed one in Greek. It is not a word at all in Hebrew. Comes from the god Christna's name. It's pagan not a Jewish concept, not a Messiah.
Excuse ME! But what dictionary are you using?
A unique one, no doubt. If I may ...
quote:
Definition:
The name Jesus is a Greek equivalent to a common Jewish name of the first century, Yeshua, and Christ is the Greek title Christos, which means Messiah or Annointed One.
Did Jesus exist? There is some debate about that. There are only two pieces of extra-biblical evidence of Jesus which have any reliability, and only one of those has any decent reliability, but that is a very short passage by Josephus. There is, thus, not enough evidence to regard his existence as a given, but there is enough to consider it reasonbly possible.
- from Agnosticism/Atheism re Jesus Christ
quote:
The word 'Christ' is used by most Christians today as though it were a surname. In its original form it means chosen' or 'anointed' for a specific office or function. The word 'Messiah' was the Jewish equivalent and in the 1st century the Romans executed hundreds of 'Messiahs' who saw it as their task to throw off the yoke of foreign rule. Many would have borne the name Joshua.
- from Atheist Foundation of Australia
quote:
The word "Christ," the Greek equivalent of the Jewish word "Messiah," was not a personal name; it was a title; it meant "the Anointed One."
The Jews were looking for a Messiah, a successful political leader, who would restore the independence of their nation. Josephus tells us of many men who posed as Messiahs, who obtained a following among the people, and who were put to death by the Romans for political reasons. One of these Messiahs, or Christs, a Samaritan prophet, was executed under Pontius Pilate; and so great was the indignation of the Jews that Pilate had to be recalled by the Roman government.
- from Did Jesus Christ Really Live?
quote:
Messiah (from the Hebrew moshiach, meaning "anointed"), refers in Judaism to the new leader (moshiach) who will rebuild the land of Israel and restore the Davidic Kingdom, while Christians generally consider Jesus Christ to be the Messiah and often use the words Messiah and Christ synonymously.
- from Wikipedia
quote:
Mashiach: `Anointed,' Messiah (Christos, Greek) Ex. 30:26,30; I Sam. 24:6; II Sam. 23:1; Psa. 105:15; Isa. 45:1; Acts 10:38; II Cor. 1:21.
- from Hebrew Dictionary
quote:
The "annointed one" (Mashiah in Hebrew, Meshiha in Aramaic, and Christos in Greek) ia among the most frequently occurring titles of Jesus in the New Testament, But ordinary readers may be surprised to learn that the meaning of these terms was much less clear in the age of Jesus than one might imagine today.
- The Changing Faces of Jesus by Geza Vermes, pg. 32
quote:
What do you think Christ means?quote:
Jesus was given the title "the Christ" seventeen hundred years ago. [e.g., 300 CE - RD]
First ...
quote:
Romans 1:16 - [KJV] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
- [YLT] for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.
quote:
Romans is one of the four letters of Paul known as the Hauptbriefe, which are universally accepted as authentic. It is typically dated c. 57 CE.
- from Early Christian Writings -- Romans
quote:
2.8.2 Author
The Pauline authorship of Romans is undisputed.
2.8.3 Place and Time of Composition
Romans was probably composed in Corinth, where Paul wrote [i.e. dictated] the letter in the house of Gaius in the spring of 56 CE (cf. Acts 20.2-3; Rom. 16.1,22,23; 1 Cor. 1.14). ‡301 The letter was probably delivered by the deaconess Phoebe (cf. Rom. 16.1-2).
‡301 On this relatively large consensus of scholarship cf. for example Zeller, Römerbrief 15; Stuhlmacher, Romans 5.
- The History And Theology Of New Testament Writings by Udo Schnelle, pg. 109
Edited by - Reasonable |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 19:30:32 [Permalink]
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The Greeks were Hellenists. Their word Christ applied to gods --specificly Savior Gods. Attis, Mithra, Dionysos and of course Christna who the term comes from. There were many saviors, the same basic myth retold again and again from India to Spain.
The Jews are monotheists. They have one god who is absolutely singular. He is not triune (another Hellenistic concept). Therefore they can have no savior gods.
Their Messiah(s) are human heros, not gods.
The Hebrew word applies only to human, the Greek only to devine.
It is applied to Jesus because he is a god. He is not a human hero and does nothing that Jewish tradition requires from a Messiah but everything Hellenists required of a Savior God.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 07:10:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
The writings of "Paul" reflect the work of at least three different authors. None of whom was Jewish but all Roman and all anti-Semitic.
I would be interested in seeing your "[n]one of whom was Jewish" claim substantiated. I know of no scholarship which questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins. See, for example, Early Christian Writings - Philippians
quote:
Slater writes:
The Greeks were Hellenists.
OK. 
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 08:40:45 [Permalink]
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As usual Slater demonstrates his own interpretation reality when it pertains to historical investigation[FYI
Paul in the Footsteps of Jesus
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A review of David Wenham's
"Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?
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by
J. P. Holding
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Should 'Christianity' be renamed 'Paulianity'? It is the opinion of some, like the nuisance-writer Hyam Maccoby, that Paul, not Jesus, was the true founder of modern Christianity, and that Paul cared or knew little of the historical Jesus and His teachings. We have seen this notion taken to absurd extremes by the likes of Earl Doherty. But does the evidence support this view?
David Wenham, in his bookPaul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?, answers this question with a resounding NO! In this detailed work, Wenham examines the record of the Gospels and the Pauline corpus, seeking both verbal and conceptual similarities that make hard the case for a Paul with no interest or knowledge in the historical Jesus.
Because this is an area of some contention, it is good that Wenham takes care in putting his case together. He does not overstate the implications of the data, which is quite strong enough as it is. Material is categorized by subject matter with a regularized structure that looks at the teachings of Paul and Jesus individually before making comparisons and drawing conclusions.
We would have liked to have seen more development in the area of why Paul makes use of Jesus' teachings in the way he does, and the reader is forewarned that Wenham's prose, and the inevitably necessary structure of the arguments make reading this book something of a jalopy ride. Nevertheless, we highly recommend it as the latest and most effective salvo in the war over the relationship between Jesus the Teacher and Paul His disciple and follower.]
P.S. Slater it seems when intelligent points are made (i.e. like Reasonable Doubts makes)you simply ignore them and continue with your "evangel" that "I Slater have the
TRUE SCOOP as to what to place 2000 years ago"
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Satan
New Member
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 11:39:28 [Permalink]
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Paul was not the disciple, follower, or even acquaintance of Jesus, if his epistles are any indication. He is the inventor of the Christ concept, as it pertains to Christians, but that does not mean that he had any personal contact with the "Christ" he claims to serve, namely Jesus the Nazarene.
In fact, the only contact he even claims to have had is a "religious experience" as he is off to Damascus. The only "teaching" which Jesus imparts on Paul is that he should stop persecuting Christians, and trust some guy to give him his sight back. No plan of salvation. No code of morality. Certainly not enough to fill the number of epistles he wrote. But that's all Jesus told him -- the rest was left up to his imagination and Greek philosophy.
Where they do teach on the same subjects, Paul and Jesus differ drastically. One of the authors of Paul's episles is very complimentary of women, and wants them to play a prominent role in the church, but another Pauline author tells them to be submissive, humble, quiet, and even cover their heads when they pray. Jesus disagrees with the latter position, rebuking his followers for trying to drive women away from him. Jesus places no restrictions on who can serve in the Kingdom, but since he apparently isn't too concerned with starting his own religion with priests and the works, he has nothing to say on whether women can serve him in that official capacity.
Jesus tells his disciples how to pray, giving them what is now known as the "Lord's Prayer." Paul tells his churches that "We do not know how we ought to pray."
Jesus tells his disciples not to swear oaths, but to let "yes" mean "yes," and "no" mean "no." Paul frequently swears on God's name and other such holy concepts that he is telling the truth. Paul must have missed that Sermon on the Mount.
It is also clear that Paul was not very close to the disciples of Jesus, or to the gospel writers who documented the Jesus stories. In the book of Acts, Paul and Peter, as well as the others who are actually mentioned in their own book, are rivals and disagree on various points of theology. Since Peter, etc. were actually present at Jesus' sermons, you'd think Paul would have a little more respect for what they have to say.
Paul, when telling his own conversion story, differs greatly from Luke's version. Apparently Luke's version was hearsay. I forget which one it is, but only one of the versions is the Damascus encounter I mentioned above.
Therefore, Jews for Jesus and Christianity are not the same thing. The Christ mythos is the invention of a chap named Paul, who was in no way related to Jesus, nor had any contact with Jesus (aside from seeing a ghost). Of course, both Jews for Jesus and Christianity are superstitious nonsense.
Satanism is the One True Religion!!! All who believe in me shall be in Hell with me, and all those heretics who disbelieve shall be damned to Heaven!!! Eeeewwww!!! 
Satan,
a.k.a. the Talking Snake Whom Atheists, Witches, Muslims, and Puerto Ricans Worship (If You Ask Anyone In This State)
Edited by - Satan on 08/03/2002 11:42:24 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 15:12:47 [Permalink]
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I know of no scholarship which questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins.
Of course we don't actually have any of Saul's writings from that time, only much later "copies."
Helm's covers Paul with his standard overkill.
I'm assuming that all of the Paul's weren't Jewish because of their pro-Roman anti-Semitic writings at around the time of the Roman destruction of Israel, combined with two of them having scant knowledge of Jewish customs.
But you are right, one of them may possibly have been Jewish. It would be like me saying that Gorgo wasn't an American based on his writings when I had no knowledge of his origin. And this "Jews for Jesus" thread is based on what is known in Brooklyn's Jewish circles as the "self-hating Jew" after all.
The Greeks were Hellenists.
OK.
My point being that amongst Roman Hellenists (who all spoke Greek) the concept of a man who is also a god was pretty standard fare. Augustus and his Gospel is a good example from the time. Also standard fare with Hellenists is the human/god hybrid, Helen, Dionysos, Heracles etc.
Some of these demigods could be called Christs. The term might even be given to a non-god savior like Prometheus but not to a human. A man could be a hero, but that's about it.
Jesus is every bit the Hellenistic Christ in the NT stories.
My point is that he isn't a Jewish Messiah. His actions are very non-Jewish, he is a demigod, and he doesn't even try to save the Jews. In fact shortly after his death Israel is wiped off the map-not a very effective job of savioring. It doesn't look good on your resume to have the people you've "saved" scattered to the four corners of the earth, while your arch enemy starts worshiping you.
darwin alogos
As usual Slater demonstrates his own interpretation reality when it pertains to historical investigation
Are you back again?
A review of David Wenham's
"Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?
by J. P. Holding
It isn't a surprise, your constant fondness for J.P. Holding- the un-ordained librarian who has registered his PC as a "ministry" with the state of Florida. He has the same knowledge of manners that you do.
"… the nuisance-writer Hyam Maccoby… this notion taken to absurd extremes by the likes of Earl Doherty"
The rest that follows this vented spleen is nothing but a book review of some volume destined only for Christian bookstores and gives no information on the topic at hand.
Did you even read this before you copied and pasted DA? Or was the title as far as your attention span could reach?
Slater it seems when intelligent points are made (i.e. like Reasonable Doubts makes)you simply ignore them
You little hypocrite! You have never once answered a question anyone has ever posed you. You call your betters names and cut and paste nonsequiturs.
and continue with your "evangel" that "I Slater have the
TRUE SCOOP as to what to place 2000 years ago"
So what are you claiming here?
Are you claiming that we have no way of knowing what has happened in the past?
Or are you claiming that onlyyou have the true scoop?
Or do you even know what you are claiming?
Please remember to take your medications before you get on the internet again.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 18:20:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
I know of no scholarship which questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins. quote:
Of course we don't actually have any of Saul's writings from that time, only much later "copies."
Perhaps I should try again: do you know of any scholarship that questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins?
quote:
... standard fare with Hellenists is the human/god hybrid, Helen, Dionysos, Heracles etc. Some of these demigods could be called Christs. The term might even be given to a non-god savior like Prometheus but not to a human.
Can you site any instance where the term Christ was applied to Helen, Dionysos, Heracles or Prometheus? Also, do you continue to assert that "annointed one" is "not a Jewish concept"?
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/03/2002 18:21:24 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 19:23:02 [Permalink]
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I continue to assert that the Jews were and are monotheists. And I continue to assert that their term "annointed one" applied to humans only. Jesus is supposed to be a god.
So are you a Jew for Jesus? Is that what this is about?" Are you contending that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah?
Or are you just busting chops, 'cause I don't see you adding anything like an original thought here.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2002 : 06:23:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
So are you a Jew for Jesus? Is that what this is about?" Are you contending that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah? ... I don't see you adding anything like an original thought here.
Argumentum ad hominem seems a little desperate to me. Why should my philosophy or ethnicity constitute a valid reason for you to avoid the questions? Again: - Do you continue to assert that "annointed one" is "not a Jewish concept"?
- Can you site any instance where the term Christ was applied to Helen, Dionysos, Heracles or Prometheus?
- Do you know of any scholarship that questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins?
As a sidenote perhaps of interest to others who may be reading this, Slater's "original thought" about 'Christ' being a pagan concept does a disservice to one of the major arguments for interpolation in the Testimonium Flavianum (Antiquities 18.3.3). It is commonly maintained that Josephus, a Jew, would have never referred to Jesus as 'Christ' precisely because of its Jewish connotation as 'the Messiah'.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/04/2002 06:31:31 |
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