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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2002 : 03:58:20
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"Israel plans to retaliate soon for a bomb at Hebrew University that killed seven people, including five Americans. Some 10,000 supporters of Hamas rallied in the streets of Gaza afterwards, celebrating the "success" of the bomb." ABC News byline, 8-1-2
Me thinking has still to return to normal from the taint of events of the past year, so perhaps yas can help me back to the 'straight-and-true.' The story above is not of a rare happening, but the normal reaction of a "people," who have embraced terror as a legitimate expression for their frustrations. These gleeful celebrations follow 'successful' bombings of childern on school buses, shopping mothers, or of young people at coffee shops.
Yet, these 'people' feel no fear in collecting together for such victory celebrations, for their victims, their enemys, are "civilized," as such, restrained from actions of like kind. Suppose me is no longer, because, were me able, would gleefully deliver a shiny new cluster bomb or two, into the midst of such celebrations.
Remind me once more, why the pleasure of such thoughts, is wrong, and doing nothing to those 'people' is the better course...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2002 : 09:16:22 [Permalink]
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Dunno. I'm struggling with this one myself. I know its wrong, but I'm struggling with it all the same.
We have enough youth. We need a fountain of smart. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 09:24:42 [Permalink]
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Nubi, a cluster bomb going off in a populated area(populated by the celebrants you mention) is what led to the bomb. What monsters launched that eh?
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 10:59:32 [Permalink]
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If the bible is to be taken as history, people in this area have been at one another's throats since the thrid and fourth people to show up.
When dog breeds turn vicious, like Rottis, Boxers and St Bernards did cross breading has fixed the problem. You couldn't ask for sweeter dogs now than these three breeds have become.
Maybe we could do the same thing in the middle east. Move in a bunch of Tongans and Eskimos to correct the inbreeding.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 11:35:16 [Permalink]
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NubiWan if you still think that israel has the moral high ground in this conflict and is in some way more civilized then the palestinians, then you have obviously become a victim of biased american repostings.
True Israel does not use suicide bombers to kill palestininan schoolchildren, they use tanks, mines and rockets for that. They also go by the line of any civillian casualities being collateral damage or accidents. It just means they have a smater PR department.
This is not the type of conflict were the good guys fight the bad guys. This can't be painted in black and white. There is no easy solution. Sending billions worth of shiny new weapons to israel to use against these 'People' has already been done for many decades and it does no seem to have made the palestinians any less likely to celebrate such ocasions. Well it has not made it any less likely in places like Gaza at least. They are not clebrating on the streets in places, where there are no palestinans any more or where the entire area is placed under house arrest and anyone, who dares to go outside is shelled by tanks. So your the idea seems to have been at least partial succsefull. Now we just have to implement the Final Solution of the palestinaian problem and everything will be alright, will it?
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 12:57:17 [Permalink]
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Lars_H
Guess me stands guilty as charged. Neither side is "Lilly White," granted, but one targets innocents and rejoices with their deaths. The other targets a ranking member of those who are conducting attacks against non-combatants, kills a gross of by standers, maybe even innocent ones, admits they blew it, and expresses regrets.
Granted it won't make a bit of difference to the dead, but am me the only one to detect a difference? Can't condone everything Israel has done, but have to say, me understands why they are trying everything, short of just blasting away at those 'people' where ever they are found. They can't stand idle as their people, their childern, are slaughtered, day after day. From where me sits, it seems to be the Palestinians, that the seeks the 'final solution,' the total and complete destruction of Israel, as they have rejected co-existence time and time again.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 14:30:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
admits they blew it, and expresses regrets.
Maybe Charles manson should have used this defense, eh? Would this be good enough for you if your family had been killed? It wouldn't quite do it for me...
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They can't stand idle as their people, their childern, are slaughtered, day after day.
Which side are you talking about here? It could be either but did you ever notice how many more palestinians have died than Israelis since this all began? Did you happen to see on the news the other day that Israeli West bank settlers killed innocent Palestinians? It was hardly a one-time occurance. I don't condone the bombing of civilians either but I don't see Israel as being even 1% less guilty of anything. I fully understand why the Palestinians would rejoice. Don't you realize who was celebrating? They were people that had watched their families and friends die the week before. I can understand their emotion.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 14:49:56 [Permalink]
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Do you really think that blasting away at those 'people' is going to solve anything?
Maybee you don't understand who these 'people' are. They are in fact just that: people. Not bloodthirsty babarians! Not sub-human! Not monsters! And not Two-legged Animals! They are ordinary people.
You don't have to be a demon to cheer for suicide bombers, you just have to be desperate. I don't condone these suicide attacks and I don't condone those that support them out of ignorance, hate, fear and desperation. But I do feel that genocide is not the solution.
And lets no mistake here it is genocide you are talking about. You can't just spray the cheering crouwds with bullets until the support for suicide bombers stops. You will only get more support for terrorism out of it and run into logistic problems gettting rid of the corpses and getting more amuntion.
There are people in there cheering on acts of terror and vengance, because they can't stand idle as their people, their childern, are slaughtered, day after day. On both sides. Maybe the best way to solve the problem is to nuke the region until the survivors stop cheering on the others deaths?
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 04:40:06 [Permalink]
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To say that am taken aback, would be a gross understatement. Am completely stunned. Dunno what exactly me expected, but Lisa came pretty close, thanks. Even Slater in his pragmatic caustic manner, attempted to extend a handle, with which to try to understand the incomprehensible. Again, thanks. This anger, that is within me, frightens me, shocks me, forces me to realize, that the difference between me and those people, isn't as great as me would wish. Might be incapable of forgiving 'them' for that, as well.
Suppose just wanted the reassurance of knowing, that otherwise reasonable people, were having their own struggles in coming to terms with these modern issues, so crudely thrust into our lives. Yet, these issues are as old as humanity, itself. What is the appropriate method to address grievances? My club is bigger than yours, so am right; if me can't live in the way me thinks me should, then no one will live. If you don't do as me says, me will kill him. How thin and frail, is this veil of western civilization, we and our childern enjoy. And in the blink of an eye, it could disappear, should enough were to give in to these angry feelings, like the ones me now feels. As is the seeming case of that blood hungry land, we call the middle east, as well as accross the continent of Africa, Indonesia, parts of eastern europe, just a too large portion of this old globe. A civilian can become a pretty good barbarian, but a true barbarian can never become a civilian, or so me belives. In order to prevail, barbarians can't allow themselves to be confined to an arena of civility, they must force the contest into their terms, where only the most ruthless of barbarity will prevail. This is what me believes, that we are witnessing today, and the most prominent clash, the most relentless, is that of the Palestinians and Israelis.
But geez, Atomic, Lars_H, pardon me, but seems to me, that you've taken this into the theater of the surreal. Don't believe the Manson family ever expressed any regrets, either, and would probably be welcomed in the likes of Gaza as hero's. Say me and about three dozen of me buds pick up our pitchforks, and set out to kill ya, @tomic. And you sit'n at home, look out yer window and see us a'coming to get ya, pick up yer AK and lay waste a dozen of us. Then me sites the body count as proof of yer inhumanity and deserve'n of death. Ya'ld understand, right, maybe even agree? ",..but I don't see Israel as being even 1% less guilty of anything. I fully understand why the Palestinians would rejoice." So yer saying there's not but a whiff of difference between the actions of the Palestinians and the Israelis? Honestly can't see how you can come to that opinion, and couldn't disagree with you more. Think me understands why they rejoice, just reject it, condem it, and despise it. "Maybee you don't understand who these 'people' are. They are in fact just that: people. Not bloodthirsty babarians! Not sub-human! Not monsters! And not Two-legged Animals! They are ordinary people." Lars_H!?! Yes, they are people, bloodthirsty barbarian people, and certainly not "ordinary people" as me thinks of the term ordinary. Just where in hell do you live? No, genocide won't work, already been tried in the last century, although we did a pretty good job with it a bit earlier. Not sure what race the Palestinians are, anyways, nor what races they draw their support from. It's tougher than that, not all Palestinians are barbarians, yet, though those that are, are weeding out those that aren't, pretty fast. Do see it as a case of black and white, or more like a case of civilization and barbarity. Unfortunately the barbarians are impolitely refusing to wear uniforms these days.
Decades of weapons, uh, right, wasn't that from when Isreal savagely attacked Jordan, Eygpt, and few other countrys, just because they said that they were going to wipe Isreal off the map? It was a dirty ambush, alright, that's why one of the irrevocable demands for 'peace' is a return to the '67 borders. If it had turned out otherwise, am certain they would have given Isreal's land back, afterall. Look at a map! Why must the land for a Palestinian state come from Isreal at all? Isreal has been giving up land for peace for decades, too, a lot of land and very little peace. Well, if ya can't beat'm on a battle field, ya can always kill their babies. From the Olympic's, when they killed the whole Isreali team, tha first school raid, just a bloody collage of one outragous image after another, those dumb ass kids proudly showing the blood on their hands from beating a couple of Isreali soldiers, kids themselves, to death, including our own twin towers. Mothers turning their own babies into weapons from the time they can walk. Sending kids out with sling-shots to pester Isreali soldiers, and puting snipers half a block behind them. Putting their bomb factories in the middle of noncombatant housing. It's all the same people, ya know, the blood thristy barbarians. Damn it, i don't care what their reasons are, just put them out of their miserable existence, anyway possible.
Crap.., there it is, again. Thanks for nothing...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 05:02:15 [Permalink]
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http://www.zmag.org/shalom-meqa.htm
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/02/2002 11:24:42
Edited by - gorgo on 08/02/2002 11:25:33 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 05:56:17 [Permalink]
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Maybe I just expressed myself wrong NubiWan. So lets try again here.
Of course cheering on acts of terror is wrong. The people cheering on the suicide bombers are wrong. Very wrong. I just don't think that that is a reason or justification to kill them all like you have suggested. Even if it was a reason to massacre them, it would not be good idea to answer terror with terror and throw a bomb on those crowds. Violence does not solve those kinds f things.
What Israel Is doing is not the same thing the suicide bombers are doing. The Suicide Bombers are terrorist. But I also think that the israeli gouvernment can be held to a higher standard of responsibility. And they don't measure up.
quote:
Lars_H!?! Yes, they are people, bloodthirsty barbarian people, and certainly not "ordinary people" as me thinks of the term ordinary. Just where in hell do you live?
Germany. That is why I was forced to realize that bloodthirsty barbarian people are infact ordinary people. some sixty years ago this country was filled with bloodthirsty barbarians cheering on the death of innocents. I never see any fangs when I meet old people.
You might think that germans are somehow special, they afterall thought themselves to be special, too. But the truth it they are quite ordinary people and it takes far less then what happen here or what is happening in the middle east to make them look like the babarian they really are. There are no civilized people on this planet. Just babarians.
Just take a look at thos 'civilized' people who suggested to retaliate for 9/11 by nuking Mecca. If they had nuked Mecca there would have been crowds of people celebrating the success of the bomb on american streets. Do you think the right answer would have been to massacre those crowds?
You say that you don't care for their reasons. You just want them to be put out of their miserable existence, anyway possible.
Don't you realise that this is exactly the mindset of the babarians you want to exterminate? Don't you realize that advocating the massacre of the palestinan people is exactly the kind of babarism that you accuse them of. Don't you realize that in your mind you are commiting the exact crime, that makes them deserve death according to you?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 06:34:21 [Permalink]
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Have people in the U.S. never cheered at their enemy's misfortunes?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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WindupAtheist
New Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 08:05:24 [Permalink]
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Hey Nubi, learn a word called "I" and get back to me.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 09:23:08 [Permalink]
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Nubi, why are you so fixated on the media showing Palestinians rejoicing? Has it occurred to you that it's perhaps unfair of the media to conveniently be there to record such a celebration? How do you know that Israelis don't have their own little celebrations but cameras are not conveniently in place to capture it? Perhaps they don't celebrate but people can celebrate what they want and I can understand why the Palestinians would celebrate. it's just about the only thing they have to celebrate right now.
@tomic
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 10:29:38 [Permalink]
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One of the things that bothers me about this whole "who's worse" debate is that I know for a fact that certain leaders on the Palestinian side have flat out said that they want every Jew dead or "driven into the sea", and that the terrorist bombings won't stop until this is accomplished.
quote:
We 'Palestinians' will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely 'Palestinian' State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
- 'Palestinian' leader Yassir Arafat, on January 30, 1996, addressing 40 Arab diplomats at the Grand Hotel in Stockholm. He was speaking under the title, "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel."
Then we find things like this:
quote:
In a current Egyptian textbook of "Arab Islamic History" used widely in teacher training colleges (in a country "at peace" with Israel), the sentiments apparently common to all Arabs of the region are expressed: "The Jews are always the same, every time and everywhere. They will not live save in darkness. They contrive their evils clandestinely. They fight only when they are hidden, because they are cowards....The Prophet [Mohammed] enlightened us about the right way to treat them, and succeeded finally in crushing the plots that they had planned. We today must follow this way and purify 'Palestine' from their filth."
quote:
"There is no forgiveness for whoever avoids the jihad in the cause of Allah for the purification of Palestine from the Jews"
- From a Syrian Islamic Education textbook for sixth grade students
The IDF is less discriminate than most would like in their military strikes, seemingly not overly concerned when civilians get killed. But do they ever target only civilians? Have any of their leaders declared that the war will not end until every Palestinian is dead to their own people, while telling the Arabs and everyone else in the world that they want peace? Do they teach their children to hate Arabs?
(These aren't rhetorical questions, I really am curious).
Both sides have done many things wrong, but there's no way in hell from what I know (granted my knowledge isn't very extensive) that one can say that the Israelis are even close to being as bad as the Palestinians.
Why am I wrong?
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/02/2002 10:33:02 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 11:50:00 [Permalink]
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If you look at my link and the links attached to that, you'll see that it was the Zionists which started the idea that the Jews would drive the non-Jews out of the region, and most people lived in peace until they began to live their dream.
That's not to excuse the hatred of one side towards the other, but the leaders of Israel are not the victims here. It is the Israeli Jews which have oppressed the Palestinians. Their reaction is not perfect, but to say that Israel is the victim here is ridiculous.
And by the way, I don't think there are any evil spirits living in Israel either, if one of you is about to tell me that all I do is say that Israel is evil.
http://www.zmag.org/shalom-meqa.htm
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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