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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
One of the things that bothers me about this whole "who's worse" debate is that I know for a fact that certain leaders on the Palestinian side have flat out said that they want every Jew dead or "driven into the sea", and that the terrorist bombings won't stop until this is accomplished.
quote:
We 'Palestinians' will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely 'Palestinian' State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
- 'Palestinian' leader Yassir Arafat, on January 30, 1996, addressing 40 Arab diplomats at the Grand Hotel in Stockholm. He was speaking under the title, "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel."
Then we find things like this:
quote:
In a current Egyptian textbook of "Arab Islamic History" used widely in teacher training colleges (in a country "at peace" with Israel), the sentiments apparently common to all Arabs of the region are expressed: "The Jews are always the same, every time and everywhere. They will not live save in darkness. They contrive their evils clandestinely. They fight only when they are hidden, because they are cowards....The Prophet [Mohammed] enlightened us about the right way to treat them, and succeeded finally in crushing the plots that they had planned. We today must follow this way and purify 'Palestine' from their filth."
quote:
"There is no forgiveness for whoever avoids the jihad in the cause of Allah for the purification of Palestine from the Jews"
- From a Syrian Islamic Education textbook for sixth grade students
The IDF is less discriminate than most would like in their military strikes, seemingly not overly concerned when civilians get killed. But do they ever target only civilians? Have any of their leaders declared that the war will not end until every Palestinian is dead to their own people, while telling the Arabs and everyone else in the world that they want peace? Do they teach their children to hate Arabs?
(These aren't rhetorical questions, I really am curious).
Both sides have done many things wrong, but there's no way in hell from what I know (granted my knowledge isn't very extensive) that one can say that the Israelis are even close to being as bad as the Palestinians.
Why am I wrong?
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/02/2002 10:33:02
Likewise there are Jewish leaders who think that the only way to stop suicide bombing is to kill every Palestinian.
Neither side has a high moral ground standing. The Hamas and other groups suicide bombers who ignore the Qu'ran Chapter 4 verse 29 and blow themselves up. They also focus on completely civilian targets. The Israelis target military targets but use an absurd amount of force. Is it really nessassary to use a F-16 jet firing a 1,000 pound missile into a crowded apartment complex a reasonable use of force.
Some Jews do celebrate the deaths of Palestinian civilians. The UN has denounced the use of force in the region on both sides. The Palestinians for targeting civilians. The Israelis for indiscriminate uses of force. Not only does Israel hunt the perpetrators, they bulldoze the houses of relatives of the perpetrators. How is this helping to stop these attacks? How is it not causing more animosity between the two sides?
Currently, we send almost $4 billion per year to Israel. This totals over 25% of aid to this area from the US. The economic aid only totals $900 million. That leaves $3.1 billion for military aid. The Palestinian authority recieves $48 million in economic aid and nothing in military aid from the US.
We are funding both sides of this war and we have the audacity to be offended when a terrorist kills students who happen to be American citizens. The problem here is twofold. We have no reason to gripe about the unrest in the region as we are helping it continue. We have reason to mourn the death of innocent students but we must keep in mind that the students chose to go into a war zone. (Israel has a standing travel advisory which specifically mentions terrorist attacks on civilian targets which the Israeli government seems unable to counter.)
What I think we need to do is to cut off all military aid to the region (Middle east) and allow the Israelis and Palestinians to beat themselves until they are ready to make peace. We got to this point once before in the 80's. Now a new group of Palestinians and Jews which have been taught hate and fear have decided to wipe out one another.
The only vicitms of this mindless killing are those citizens (Israeli and Palestinian alike) who are only trying to make a living and are gunned down, blown up, or left to die in the street.
Cthulu/Asmodeus, when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:22:50 [Permalink]
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There is a reason Palestinians target civilians. Does anyone here expect a few men with guns and teenagers with rocks to take on the IDF head on? Some might but I don't. What they do is what they can. If Palestinians were backed by the US our press would be calling them freedom fighters.
So while attacking civilians is horrible understand that it is the only military option they have.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:24:59 [Permalink]
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That's an anti-American conspiracy theory.
Don't you know soldiers fought and died for the right for me to tell you to shut up and go away?
quote:
If Palestinians were backed by the US our press would be calling them freedom fighters.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 12:47:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
But do they ever target only civilians? Have any of their leaders declared that the war will not end until every Palestinian is dead to their own people, while telling the Arabs and everyone else in the world that they want peace? Do they teach their children to hate Arabs?
(These aren't rhetorical questions, I really am curious).
It will probably suprise you that the answer is YES to all of the above questions. One could make a bit of an arguement about the first question about only trageting civilians. They generally don't traget only civilians. Sometimes only civilians end up being dead, but they were not being trageted it was an accident a mistake. It is also hard to compare suicide bombers to curfew and blocades that affect entire regions. If the isreali miltary wants to make the palestinians suffer in response to some act of terrorism they make sure they have some sort military target or excuse most of the time. You would be suprised at what some of the Israeli leaders have to say about the palestinians. Among the more right-wing political elements the aim of an Israel free of non-jews is made very plane. Talk ranges from 'voluntary' deportation to ouright extermination. And those are not just some fringe nut-jobs. Ze'evi was one of Sharons ministers and a member of the ruling coalition before they had their falling out and he got assainated.
And you can believe that they don't teach their children to look objective at the situation and look at things from the others side.
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2002 : 14:03:24 [Permalink]
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Outstanding. I am truly impressed. Real open debate on this. The media pusheds the Israeli side so hard that most anyone even questioning the jews gets branded anti-semetic or nazi really fast. So I applaud all of you for that right there.
As for the topic: come on, the Israelis would make Hitler proud in thier campaign of oppression and genocide. The jews have been able to keep it up for over 50 years. Entire generations not wiped out in a couple years like the nazi's did. But rather whole lifetimes of oppression and anger.
I do not support any terrorist, however. Killing civilians is ultimately a losing battle and only serves to isolate an already isolated group.
But the Israelis have systematically destroyed any option left to the Palestinians. Without being allowed a military, any combat action they do take will be branded as terrorism, regardless of whether it struck a purely military target or not.
Having been to Israel and getting to see first hand how the Palestinians are treated will make anyone appreciate America alot more. There are treated as little more than animals, only tolerated because thier mass extinction would cause political ramifications. The over-riding policy has been "stay in your squalid prison camps and hope no one sets off a bomb, or we'll destroy your whole neighborhood."
Funny how we don't want to talk to a 'terrorist' like Arafat, but we're in bed with a commiter of war crimes, Sharon.
So for those that read the thread on Iraq and think I just blindly follow Bush- I think he is totally wrong supporting Israel!
Neither side is worth a damn. Neither rewards anything to the US of value, while sucking up huge resources and alienating the US from most muslim country on earth.
Both sides are consumed with the destruction of the other. It is an institutional mind set that for one side to exist, the other must die, entirely.
Both base thier hatreds on religion, so you can imagine the validity I give that.
But everyday you see scenes on CNN of how some palestinian kid blew his ass up at a market. The 'toll of terror' bit they ran (CNN again) highlighted how those nasty arabs were killing so many jews.
Last time I saw stats, palestininan losses were 3 or 4 times that of israelis. It's pretty plain to see who's doing the killing in this war. Well, that only makes sense- considering only one side has F-16's and CBU's to drop on neighborhoods.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2002 : 00:17:25 [Permalink]
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SillyLama: "But the Israelis have systematically destroyed any option left to the Palestinians."
Weren't the Palestinians resently offered their own state, and much more, for peace, but it was rejected, because the Palestinians demanded total control of Jerusalem? Dunno for sure, but seem to recall the city has some historical importance to those of Jewish faith. But you don't see that as an 'option,' take it. Guess me is a victim of the media suppression of the many Jewish hijacking attempts, school attacks, and the like. So you'll understand why, me sees much of this thread as a twist on the "Blame the Victim" stance. Old enough to recall the "Human Wave" attacks in Korea, too. If understand yer arguement, the body count would then prove US the aggressors there too, huh?
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2002 : 03:38:29 [Permalink]
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Korea attacked the U.S.?
The other day, ads for Hardballsaid something to the effect that America has never struck first. Should we now attack Iraq?
Never struck first? Panama invaded the U.S.?
quote:
the body count would then prove US the aggressors there too, huh?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2002 : 19:37:56 [Permalink]
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What the Palestinians were offered was a joke. An insult.
Borders controlled by Israel. Travel between the disparate parts of the 'palestinian state' controlled by Israel. Import/export (as if the palestinians are allowed to have enough infrastructure to sustain an economy) controlled by Israel. No standing military! "Legal" authority for Israel to invade at any time to root out anyone they don't like. Oh and a few of thier children while they're at it.
Arafat would have been a traitor to his own people if he had signed that pile of shit they called a peace offer. All it aimed for was a confirmation of the oppression with the signature of the people being oppressed.
Although I think he's a low-life that wrangled his way to prominance, Arafat should have gotten the Nobel Prize for rejecting that affirmation of racist, fundamentalist, oppression.
The jews only claim to that land comes from a book that makes them 'the chosen' ones and all else are inferior. The women under the Taliban lived better than your average palestinian under the jews.
Like I said, Hitler could only dream of oppressing people for over half a century.
Am I the only one that sees real similarities between how Israel came to be and how the Europeans conqoured the Native Americans? In '47 we kicked all the people out of thier homes, took thier land and handed to it thier ancient enemies. The arabs were herded into camps. Some might say concentration camps. Where your existance is barely tolerated by the new masters.
I remember seeing (on CNN- so take it for what it's worth) that one of these prison camps turned village after 50 years (I forgot which one) was 600 yards by 600 yards, but housed something like 12,000 palestinians. Living in conditions that make downtown Tijuana look like Club Med.
Gee, wonder why they strap bombs to themselves. Which is the stupidest thing you can do. The palestinians could really hold the moral high ground in this conflict. This is a place just one step from the genocide of Kosovo.
Does anyone doubt that given the chance, Israel would nuke every palestinian town into dust?
These are people who hate each other because GOD told them to. How much credit do you think they deserve? It's just that the Israelis have the backing of the world's only super power. Kinda tips the scales.....
Smell the glove!!!!
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Strychnos
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2002 : 19:55:01 [Permalink]
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As a foreign national living in the US, I have been repeatedly amazed by how biased the reporting on the Middle East conflict is in this country. It is heartening for me to read these well-informed posts that show that despite all the media slant, so many here have taken the time to look at both sides of the issue and to get themselves informed. Way to go!
As for the issue itself, I find that very disheartening. I agree with those here who have said that neither side has the moral high ground, that there are some very dangerous extremists on both sides.
As for the images of Palestinians celebrating, I would like to suggest that those Palestinians who do not support killing of Israeli civilians may not have the freedom to express their dissenting opinions that Americans take for granted. Maybe it's a case of "cheer the killings when the TV cameras are rolling, or get murdered as a collaborator/sympathizer". Just a suggestion.
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2002 : 20:06:11 [Permalink]
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No, I believe they honestly hate us. But then, what have we ever done for them? The US played the lead role in forming Israel. Having to negotiate thru the country that was responsible for you being kicked out of your homes might make you bitter.
Get this, we sent a JEWISH WOMAN (Albreicht) to 'negotiate and mediate' between the two sides. You know arabs are no great friends of women's lib, which (in case you didn't know) that would be considered and insult by itself. But just how fair of an ear do you think the palestinians got from a JEW sent there to negotiate supposedly for botht sides?! What a fuckin' laugh, if it weren't so damn deadly serious.
No one that either
1. is a jew or...
2. got thier head buried in the media sand
could possibly believe that the US has been even remotely impartial in it's efforts.
It's a case of 'we were oppressed, so now we get to oppress someone else for free.
'Compensatory Oppression' it's called by Prof Steve Dutch, University of Wisconsin. It fits perfectly to this situation.
Smell the glove!!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 02:44:39 [Permalink]
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This is Anti-American! Why does this guy hate soldiers so much!? He doesn't swallow everything the State Department says! What is he, a conspiracy nut?
quote:
No, I believe they honestly hate us. But then, what have we ever done for them? The US played the lead role in forming Israel.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 08:42:15 [Permalink]
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Are you rambling on about me?
Anti-American? Didn't we go thru this before?
I dedicated more than a decade of my life as a soldier, defending people like you who had better things to do than actually defend the rights you enjoy.
I've been to the middle east, including Israel. Have you? No? Well that tells me right there about how much your opinion is worth. Another person whose entire range of knowledge on a subject is limited to what CNN/Mtv tell them.....
You can jabber on about foreign policy. I WAS FOREIGN POLICY. It's a matter of putting you money where your mouth is.
You would have to be brainwashed to believe the US has been fair in any sense of the word, in dealing with the palestinians and jews. Pretty simple, there is a very powerful jewish lobby in the US. There is not a powerful arab lobby.
We sided with the jews to give them the land, we've supported them in several wars against arabs. Just how unbiased have we been so far? We sent a jew (and a holier-than-thou holocaust refugee at that)to negotiate on the palestinian behalf. WTFO?! We push 'peace offers' that are a sham and are nothing more than a document legalizing the brutal oppresion of the palestinians. And somehow the US is impartial?
I don't care much for the palestinians either. They've all spent too long in the desert sun and had their brains fried in my opinion. People on this BBS don't care much for fundamentalism, and that whole part of the world REVOLVES around it. The mentalities over there today are not much different from the days of the Crusades. Infidels have no right to choose thier beliefs and deserve death for free thought. But that's the case on both sides. Both are absolutely right- because GOD made them so.
The jews want Israel because god gave it them. The palestinians want it because it was the land they were living on (for oh, a couple thousand years) when they got evicted.
I know how I'd feel in the same position.
And just how does lack of support for an oppresive regime like Israel's equate to anti-americanism?
Smell the glove!!!!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 09:09:33 [Permalink]
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Yes, I'm rambling on about you and the people like you on this forum that say disagreeing with the State Department is anti-American and who say that I'm a conspiracy nut because of it. You must be the same. You must hate America and all soldiers. In fact, you're probably a self-hating jew homosexual.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/23/2002 09:10:50 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2002 : 10:34:36 [Permalink]
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Huh? I disagree with the government on many issues. Several threads will bear that right out.
I say you are a conspiracy nut because you sound like one. that old 'there's ALWAYS another reason. The gov't could NEVER just be doing what it is because of what it says. No, there HAS to be some other agenda.' Of course you don't offer any other, more reasonable agenda. Other that it makes rich people richer. That's a direct line out of the conspiracy nutjobs. Yeah, all the richest people, maybe the Illuminati too.
That somehow, given all we know about Saddam and his jones for WMD, including his use of it to slaughter civilians, just CAN'T be the reason we'd invade Iraq. Oh no. It must be some hidden what...CONSPIRACY, that 'they' are hiding. You seem so sure it's not a WMD program we want to go after, so tell us- just what is it then?
quote:
Yes, I'm rambling on about you and the people like you on this forum that say disagreeing with the State Department is anti-American and who say that I'm a conspiracy nut because of it. You must be the same. You must hate America and all soldiers. In fact, you're probably a self-hating jew homosexual.
--Classic stupidity from a source we've come to expect it from. You certainly don't disappoint.
Smell the glove!!!!
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