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 Speed of Light Inconstant says new research
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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2002 :  06:11:16  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
I just came across this Reuters News article. I reports of new research by australian scientist Paul Davies that questions the constancy of the speed of light. This is the first I have ever heared of this person and theory. He does talk about slowing light, but nothing is mentioned that would connect him to the creationists ideas of slow light tat have been around for years. Does Anybody know more about this?

Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular

USA
1447 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2002 :  07:32:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tokyodreamer a Private Message
Paul Davies is a popular science writer who writes books about how quantum physics can lead us to God...

------------

I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
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DVF
Skeptic Friend

USA
96 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2002 :  07:34:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send DVF a Private Message
I'll hold off on reacting until I here some peer criticism of Davies' work, but if he's right my reactions will be:

Holy Shit!
Cool!
Now how will the fundies twist this one?

"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002
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DVF
Skeptic Friend

USA
96 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2002 :  07:35:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send DVF a Private Message
quote:

Paul Davies is a popular science writer who writes books about how quantum physics can lead us to God...



Why am I not surprised?

"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002
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Cosmic string
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2002 :  18:28:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Cosmic string's Homepage Send Cosmic string a Private Message
Paul Davies is shamelessly promoting this as something that will topple what we know about the universe. He even flat-out lies, claiming that "the electron charge shall not change and the speed of light shall not change," are "cherished laws of the universe." NO! Many physical constants, including these two, have been tested to see if they may be tied to the age of the universe. No change was ever found, so these constants are believed to be true constants.

I'm interested to know exactly what evidence Davies has. How many quasars displayed this behavior? Quasars have been observed for decades with no anomilies of this type ever found. A misinterpretation of data of this type had once led to the wrong conclusion that quasars contain unknown chemical elements. But we must wait for peer review and additional observations to find out if he is right.

As for Davies' perversion of quantum physics, all I have to say is that he must be putting superstition before reason and either doesn't understand or misrepresents quantum mechanics.

“The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.” --Voltaire
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Cosmic string
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2002 :  18:48:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Cosmic string's Homepage Send Cosmic string a Private Message
I just noticed that the idiot writing the Reuters article called the second law of thermodynamics part of the "dogma of physics." Despicable.

“The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.” --Voltaire

Edited by - Cosmic String on 08/14/2002 02:58:47
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Wiley
Skeptic Friend

68 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2002 :  10:02:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Wiley a Private Message
This news is far from confirmed. New Wright's cosmology tutorial has a skeptical section on this:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

Scroll down to the section "Variable Constants?"

Even if the reports are true, the proposed change in c is one part per million per 10 billion years. In another words the speed of light was 2.99792758e8 m/s not 2.99792458e8m/s. As you could imagine, trying to get measurements this precise of an object 10 billion light years away is fraught with peril.

In my opinion the NY Times has the best science section of any of the major news venue. It's gratifying to see, they do not have article about this (yet).

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Cosmic string
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2002 :  19:49:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Cosmic string's Homepage Send Cosmic string a Private Message
quote:
That means giving up the theory of relativity and E=mc squared and all that sort of stuff

Davies actually said this; this is beneath contempt.

quote:
Davies, and astrophysicists Tamara Davis and Charles Lineweaver from the University of New South Wales published the proposal in the August 8 edition of scientific journal Nature.

Remind me to take things in Nature with a grain of salt.

quote:
After considering that a change in the electron charge over time would violate the sacrosanct second law of thermodynamics

Wow, science is taking a beating! I probably don't need to tell anyone here that this is equating science with religion. Just one question: who called it sacrosanct, Davies or the reporter? I'd say Davies.

quote:
a theory Davies stresses represents only the first chink in the armor of the theory of relativity

So he's an anti-relativity nut? He thinks relativity is completely wrong and will need to be totally scrapped, not incorporated into future theories? No wonder he made the claim "That means giving up the theory of relativity and E=mc squared and all that sort of stuff."

quote:
When one of the cornerstones of physics collapses, it's not obvious what you hang onto and what you discard

Now he's done it. He's perpetuating that false notion that everything we know is found to be totally wrong with every new discovery. What cornerstone collapsed? None. Absolutely nothing "collapse[d]."

quote:
If what we're seeing is the beginnings of a paradigm shift in physics like what happened 100 years ago with the theory of relativity and quantum theory, it is very hard to know what sort of reasoning to bring to bear

So he's comparing this to the Michelson-Morley experiment? With Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle? Relativity? Does he have delusions of grandeur or just no respect for science?

quote:
For example, varying light speed could explain why two distant and causally unconnected parts of the universe can be so similar even if, according to conventional thought, there has not been enough time for light or other forces to pass between them.

No it could not. This tiny shift can't account for the isotropy of the CMB. To do that, it would require light to travel fast enough to double the distance traveled so far. Two points on the CMB can be as far apart as 30 Gly, but there has only been enough time for light to travel 15 Gly. One part per million in 10 Gyr won't change that a bit.

quote:
Or there may be startling implications that could change not only the way cosmologists view the universe but also its potential for human exploitation.

This does not mean we can travel any faster around the universe. The change is insignificant and, more importantly, could mean the speed of light is slowing down very slowly. So it could only hinder future exploration, were it true.

quote:
"For example there's a cherished law that says nothing can go faster than light and that follows from the theory of relativity," Davies said. The accepted speed of light is 300,000 km (186,300 miles) per second.

"Maybe it's possible to get around that restriction, in which case it would enthrall Star Trek fans because at the moment even at the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to cross the galaxy. It's a bit of a bore really and if the speed of light limit could go, then who knows? All bets are off," Davies said.

"All bets are off"?! He is clearly not a real physicist. He's a pseudoscientific crackpot. What about this, were it true, could possibly allow for faster than light travel? Nothing. Were it in my power, I'd make sure he never published a paper or worked as a scientist ever again.

And to think two feature articles in Scientific American's next issue are written by him. Disgusting. They'll sure be getting a letter from me, though I'm glad they've shown restraint (so far) and don't mention this potentially tentative finding in the next issue (though that may just be timing). If I see them endorcing this same nonsense Reuters has in a later issue, they will get a nasty letter from me pointing out how utterly ludicrus the things Davies claims are.

“The first warning sign of voodoo science is that it's pitched directly to the media." --Robert L. Park

Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/15/2002 05:31:38
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular

USA
1447 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2002 :  05:23:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tokyodreamer a Private Message
quote:
quote:
That means giving up the theory of relativity and E=mc squared and all that sort of stuff

Davies actually said this; this is beneath contempt.


Isn't the atomic bomb a direct result of E=mc2? Wouldn't it be kinda hard to give up a theory that has such specific real-world examples of it at work?


[OH CRAP ON A CRAP CRACKER! I'm SOOO sorry Cosmic String! I hit the Edit Button instead of the Quote button and erased your post! Do you happen to still have a copy of your message? ]

Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/15/2002 05:34:46
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular

USA
1447 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2002 :  05:30:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tokyodreamer a Private Message
[Found it in my cache. Again I am SO sorry, Cosmic String. I will be extra careful from now on. ]

Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/15/2002 05:32:38
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Cosmic string
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2002 :  10:03:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Cosmic string's Homepage Send Cosmic string a Private Message
Erased what post? Oh, well, doesn't matter. It was a mistake so I can't hold it against you. BTW, thank you so much for fixing it.

I think if E=mc^2 wasn't true, we'd also have no way to manufacture matter and antimatter in particle accelerators. They make tens of thousands, sometimes millions, of particle-antiparticle pairs per day. They always get the same result: the mass of the pair is always equal to the energy of the photons that made them divided by c^2. And when they annihilate matter and antimatter, the energy created is always equal to the mass annihilated times c^2. And radiation pressure wouldn't exist if E=mc^2 wasn't true. There's no way Davies "forgot" about this. He has to have lost his mind or maybe he's just shameless science-damaging showman.

“The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.” --Voltaire
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Wiley
Skeptic Friend

68 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2002 :  13:15:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Wiley a Private Message
quote:


I think if E=mc^2 wasn't true, we'd also have no way to manufacture matter and antimatter in particle accelerators. They make tens of thousands, sometimes millions, of particle-antiparticle pairs per day. They always get the same result: the mass of the pair is always equal to the energy of the photons that made them divided by c^2. And when they annihilate matter and antimatter, the energy created is always equal to the mass annihilated times c^2. And radiation pressure wouldn't exist if E=mc^2 wasn't true. There's no way Davies "forgot" about this. He has to have lost his mind or maybe he's just shameless science-damaging showman.




Also special relativity is one on the supports of quantum field theory and quantum electrodynamics. If E = mc^2 were not true, we would not have such nifty devices like computers, cell phones, and lasers.

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painter
New Member

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2002 :  10:31:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send painter a Private Message
I apologize for the length of this post but I think you'll appreciate this debate I had. I also hope that you can follow who is saying what. I have put in the names of who is saying what whenever the person changes. If you need a well-formatted Word version email me at stpainter@state.pa.us.

On the Animation Nation forums, under the topic Art, Artists, Science, and Fiction, the following posts started the debate. You can see the whole thread here:

http://www.animationnation.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003622

[Webi/Floro]
“Webi” posted these:

webi144 posted August 13, 2002 10:59 PM
Member
Member # 639
I posted this topic on an AOL message board about science and religion.
Einstein's theory is wrong. His theory is based on the hypothetical foundation that the speed of light is constant everywhere. But recently, it was shown and proven by a team of chinese scientists that light can be made to crawl, even stop. This contradicts Einstein's basic assumption.
The following is some other findings by a team of australian scientists, which I summarized: The accepted laws of the universe are
(a) the law that electron charge shall not change
(b) the speed of light shall not change or constant
If (b) is correct, that is, Einstein is correct, then (a) is wrong, which violates the sacrosanct second law of thermodynamics. (second law of thermodynamics implies that you cannot get something from nothing) This is unacceptable. So the only alternative is that (a) is correct and (b) is wrong. That is, Einstein is wrong and preserves the second law of thermodynamics. This conclusion, together with the findings of the chinese and australian
teams of scientists that light is NOT CONSTANT, savaged Einstein's theory.
In blunt terms, Einstein is wrong.

webi144 posted August 13, 2002 11:01 PM
Member
Member # 639
This is another topic I posted under the AOL science and religion message board:
Let us now go deeper into the realm of the spiritual and philosophical. Yes, "there is an absolute constant. It is unchangeable by time and will last for all eternity and beyond." But it cannot be found in the evolving and changing physical creations, because everything in it is not constant.
Failure to consider this will cause the demise of any theory by time, in particular, the theory of Einstein. Moreover, one should also consider what is written at 1 Corinthians 3: 19, 20. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God...God knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile." And what we believe to be true right now will be discarded in the distant future during or after our lifetime.
Going farther, Einstein's theory asserted that nothing can travel beyond the speed of light. In effect, it implies philosophically that God is limited, perceivable, and He has finite power. Obviously, it also implies that God moves less than the speed of light, which is His creation. And it will take a long, long, time even for God, to cross the breadth of the universe which is another one of His creations. These implications contradict the
unperceivable eternal existence and infinite power of God. God is almighty (Genesis 17: 1).
However, those theories that don't contradict God's wisdom and the creative manifestations of His power will stand the test of time for all eternity. For example, the findings that the universe is expanding is consistent with what's written in Isaiah 40: 22, "...the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze..." The second law of thermodynamics that something comes from something is consistent with what is written at
Revelations 4: 11. And the theory proposed by the team of Australian scientists that light is not constant, and at its origin, light has infinite speed and decelerated by time to what is its speed now. This theory is consistent with what is written in Isaiah 40: 26, "Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power..." And at R
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