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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2002 : 14:19:10
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Um, if you're in Alabama (I think) they're doing this thing at the Atheists in Foxholes Memorial.
But thought some might find this intersting. And I think Ashcroft would flip if ever found out about this.
http://www.dailyherald.com/oped/col_constable.asp?intID=37483124
Military grave markers a monument to atheists in the foxholes
Posted on August 15, 2002
Any member of the United States military who wouldn't be caught dead proclaiming "one nation, under God" has an option.
Our federal government carves atheist-affirming emblems into the gravestones of qualified veterans.
This information comes to me in an e-mail from the always engaging Calvin Claus, an Arlington Heights resident and World War II veteran who retired from National-Louis University in 1991 after more than three decades as a professor in the psychology department.
"Imagine, the full weight of the U.S. government certifying and authenticating the existence of a group that disclaims the existence of anything 'under God'!" Claus writes of the atheist headstones. "Don't tell Ashcroft; he'll flip."
Since Abraham Lincoln started the practice, our government has been providing headstones or modest markers for military veterans. When it comes to "emblems of belief," the government now gives veterans more options than Baskin-Robbins - with 32 emblems on the frequently expanded list at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration's Web site (www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm).
Among the emblems deemed "appropriate" for a headstone are the "Christian Cross," the "Hebrew Star of David," the "Muslim Crescent & Star," the "Buddhist Wheel of Righteousness," the "Hindu Om," the "Mormon Angel Moroni," the "Christian Scientist Cross & Crown," the "Unitarian Church Flaming Chalice," the "Bahai 9-Pointed Star," and the "Atheist" emblem, which looks
like a logo for a nuclear power plant.
"We just recently approved another one, and I have seven or eight in the pipeline," says David Schettler, the director of memorial program services for the National Cemetery Administration. The requests must be legitimate and have the blessing of an organized religion or belief, Schettler adds.
(This eliminates any requests for "Church of Bob" or "Temple of Exit 201 Discount Shoes.")
The atheistic "atomic whirl" symbol was designed in 1963 as a way of "recognizing the new atomic era but emphasizing the truth of older scientific findings," explains Joe Zamecki, an employee of American Atheist, a national atheist organization.
From April 1, 2001, through March 31 of this year, 306,909 veterans requested headstones or markers, notes Jo Schuda, a spokeswoman for the veterans department. Of those, only 18 requested the atheist emblem.
Christians dominated the requests with an overwhelming 263,612 veterans ordering the Christian Cross, Schuda says. The next most-popular emblem was the Lutheran Cross, with 3,220. Then came the Methodist (2,747) and Jewish (2,443) emblems.
But the VA tries to accommodate all sincere requests - whether they come from the 206 veterans who wanted the Native American Church of North America emblem, the two who sought the sign of the Tenrikyo Church, or the solitary soldier who ordered the emblem of the Seicho-No-Ie faith.
After witnessing the overwhelming public and political support for keeping "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, "I think some folks would be upset" that our government provides atheist gravestones for veterans, says Kathleen Johnson, founder of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (www.maaf.info).
Nope, says Schettler. He adds that before 1997, the government subsidized private markers, which led to some beefs about publicly funded military headstones that also boasted privately funded homosexual emblems.
Originally designed for unmarked graves, the VA program expanded under a law signed last December by President Bush. It now provides military stones and plaques even for veterans who also have private headstones. Schettler says the VA wants veterans to take advantage of the program, which costs about $35 million a year.
In no rush to claim his burial benefits, Claus allows that he'll probably opt for a Lutheran Cross.
"But at that point in my life/death," Claus says, "I couldn't care less about the details."
You're better off not caring about the details. After all, the devil is in the details, and he isn't on the list of acceptable emblems.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
Edited by - Trish on 08/24/2002 14:23:19
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 07:30:07 [Permalink]
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I totally fail to understand why the "atheist" symbol is the atomic model. Isn't an atheist someone who denies the existence of any kind of "higher [spiritual] authority"? Which means, to me, that the only "god" that an atheist recognizes is him or her self.
Do atheists "worship" socialism? Does society constitute a kind of "higher order of thing" for an athiest?
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 08:05:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I totally fail to understand why the "atheist" symbol is the atomic model. Isn't an atheist someone who denies the existence of any kind of "higher [spiritual] authority"? Which means, to me, that the only "god" that an atheist recognizes is him or her self.
Do atheists "worship" socialism? Does society constitute a kind of "higher order of thing" for an athiest?
An atheist is simply someone who believes in no theology. This includes all of the various gods, demons, angels, devils, and the whole litany of myths and magic. You can also toss in John Edward, et al.
I too, fail to understand why that symbol was chosen, although I rather like it.
What's the big deal?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 08:21:07 [Permalink]
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Then it seems to me, then, that an atheist must believe in a "theology of (his/her) self". No?
Does an atheist have any "worshipful" feelings about society? |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 09:19:22 [Permalink]
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I can't speak for any other atheist, but I don't.
Define 'theology', please.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 09:29:27 [Permalink]
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Computer Org,
Your questions are puzzling me. What do you mean by "Then it seems to me, then, that an atheist must believe in a "theology of (his/her) self". No?"
Atheists (in general) believe that we are it, there is no higher power, there is no heavingly world you go to after you die (or hellish one). An atheist for the most part does not worship anything. (for definitions of worship see here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=worship). We do admire and are amazed by manythings including nature and our fellow humans (cultures and societies).
For an atheist there is no higher order nor are we (humans) a higher being. Humans are just one component of the natural universe that is around us. We realize that if humans went extinct tomorrow the universe would keep on ticking without notice (except one particular planet might end up slightly better off for a while).
So to answer your question as best I can, an atheist does not believe in any theology (again here for definitions of theology http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theology).
Now to add some standard disclaimers that one must use when discussing atheist:
1. Atheists are very different and the views above are generalizations and some (maybe even the majority) might disagree with those views above which are soley mine :>
Edited to add the following:
The atomic symbol I believe was selected because it has become somewhat of a universal symbol for science. Atheists consider science the best way to learn about the universe around us and consider divine revelations to be a little less than divine. I would say that the symbol is meant to represent atheists reliance on science, reason, and logic and not faith.
I do think however that the symbol is only the official symbol of American Atheists (a particular organization) and is not the universal symbol of all atheists. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 07/01/2003 09:32:05 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 09:32:54 [Permalink]
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Well, actually I was just following your lead from yr post above:quote:
An atheist is simply someone who believes in no theology. This includes all of the various gods, demons, angels, devils, and the whole litany of myths and magic. You can also toss in John Edward, et al.
I don't have an answer.  :D
____________________________________
Edited to add: I don't know; I suppose a theology would be the description, the rules, and the regulations/laws of some social structure which deals with a "higher" system of things (--"higher" than the individual, than the family-group; even than the government). :) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 07/01/2003 09:37:57 |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 16:40:01 [Permalink]
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| I wanna radioactive symbol on my headstone |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 17:21:54 [Permalink]
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Computer Org,
Few people know that Atheism is a 'recognized religion' by the US Military. Though no such thing as an Atheist Chaplain exists in the Chaplaincy. I thought the issue might be of some interest to the veterans on this site.
I must say that jcmginn has defined the atheist view point rather well. Please remember that 'a' without 'theist' god is the best definition. Atheists live a life without god or belief in a deity. The concept of deity is not necessary to the equation of existance. For some that seems a difficult concept to wrap their minds around, for atheists the concept of a 'greater power' out there in some undefined realm that concerns itself with the individual lives of people on our little planet in the middle of Nowhere Milkyway, seems incomprehensible. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 17:33:45 [Permalink]
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I guess one could say everyone's an atheist to a certain degree. If a christian only believes in their own god, then one could say they are atheist to the thousands of other ficticious gods that others on this planet believe in or did believe in, in the past.
Atheism is nothing about denial or denying anything. The word atheist means simply without belief.
a - without. To use it in a different context, - You say you don't believe in Santa Claus? Then you're a Santa Claus atheist.
To say one denies the existence of a god is a bit misleading. That statement presupposes the god's existance.
When one does say they're atheist, that's generally accepted to mean they don't believe in any and all gods, beezlebuds, gaseous apparitions of the spirit type. 
That fits me best. But I'm all eyes and ears for any -real- evidence. Same thing goes for Santa Claus. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2003 : 20:21:44 [Permalink]
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I had no idea that atheist was a choice when I was in the service. I just had the bland "no religious preference" category. Oh well, I am out of the service, so it doesn't really matter now.
By the way, I have a question for the other atheists on this board. Do you ever get the ," You're really not an atheist, just agnostic." Or the," Its just a phase.", or my favorite , "Don't you know you are endangering your soul?" quotes from people, family , friends, etc.? I find most people can't really accept that atheists are really atheist. Dunno, maybe just my own experiences. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 05:48:35 [Permalink]
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Darwin Storm, I had a wonderful experience driving my Pentacostal aunt-in-law back home one day a little more than a month ago. She's very religious, and spent at least a half hour telling me about how worried she is for my eternal soul. For the sake of family politics, I mostly kept quiet, but before she decided to change the subject, she got about one hair away from me telling her what I really thought.
It's really just the fundamentalists who can't accept that atheists are atheists (or even that agnostics, like myself, are agnostics). Oh, them and folks who just take their religiousness for granted, and mistakenly assume that everyone else is exactly like them. People who think for a bit, on the other hand, tend to be able to both accept someone's lack of religion, and tell them they're going to Hell for it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 07:44:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Computer Org,
Few people know that Atheism is a 'recognized religion' by the US Military. Though no such thing as an Atheist Chaplain exists in the Chaplaincy. I thought the issue might be of some interest to the veterans on this site.
I must say that jcmginn has defined the atheist view point rather well. Please remember that 'a' without 'theist' god is the best definition. Atheists live a life without god or belief in a deity. The concept of deity is not necessary to the equation of existance. For some that seems a difficult concept to wrap their minds around, for atheists the concept of a 'greater power' out there in some undefined realm that concerns itself with the individual lives of people on our little planet in the middle of Nowhere Milkyway, seems incomprehensible.
I have to admit, Trish, that I've always taken "atheist" as you said: a-theist. (Although I haven't thought about the word very much---except enough to finally reach a disbelief that there CAN BE such a thing as an "atheist".)
Yes, I agree: jcmginn has done as good a job as possible in describing the "atheist point of view". On the other hand, when someone (jcmginn) writes "We [atheists] do admire and are amazed by many things including nature and our fellow humans (cultures and societies).", I find that I feel the same but that those feelings of admiration and/or amazement lead ME to reaffirm my belief in a "higher power": Same thoughts; opposite conclusion.
________________________________________
As an aside, "Patch", of BABB 'fame', died about a year ago. A cause for celebration among several on this board, perhaps; but she is sorely missed by me and others of her friends. She was a beauty! :(( |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:20:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
I had no idea that atheist was a choice when I was in the service. I just had the bland "no religious preference" category. Oh well, I am out of the service, so it doesn't really matter now.
By the way, I have a question for the other atheists on this board. Do you ever get the ," You're really not an atheist, just agnostic." Or the," Its just a phase.", or my favorite , "Don't you know you are endangering your soul?" quotes from people, family , friends, etc.? I find most people can't really accept that atheists are really atheist. Dunno, maybe just my own experiences.
Hmm, I just left my tags blank. Was asked who to call if something happened to me, I said, "A doctor would be nice." DS, check out MAAF, I have a link somewhere on this board to their website. Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. It's about time something like that exists.
My mother had a long talk with my daughter and I about how she was concerned with our eternal souls. She knows that heaven exists because her brother was dying from MD and saw 'heaven'. Of course, the doctors said it was a result of the MD and being close to death. Interpretation, I suppose. Then there's my brother that thinks going to church will fix my 'problems' when he doesn't attend church. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.
edited because I'm an idiot. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 07/02/2003 14:21:29 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 11:42:09 [Permalink]
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An atheist is simply someone who believes in no theology. This includes all of the various gods, demons, angels, devils, and the whole litany of myths and magic. You can also toss in John Edward, et al.
My dictionary says, "one who denies the existance of God" It's hard to deny what you haven't studied and most atheists I meet have studied the Bible quite a bit. Question is, what does an atheist actually believe in? Are atheists gods unto themselves? Many of them write as if they know it all and are assurred of their non-belief. Most of them believe in evolution which reduces their arguments to those of simply another mammal, yet many of them lord it over other life forms and even eat them. Some have compassion on animals and fish, while hating other human beings. An atheist is a walking contradiction. They can believe they are the lowly decendants of bacterium and at the same time, kill, rape, deceive, and bully the rest of the human race (U.S.S.R) into buying their beliefs. They talk acceptance and tolerance of others, yet try to eliminate other forms of religion that denounce them in a heart beat. Pig headed, egotistical, morons might be an apt description for some of them. Others have a soft approach and espouse intellectualism and science. Just as their are many "theistic" religions, so are their many atheistic religions, it seems, some militant, some pacifist, some learned, some ignorant, some rich, some poor, some full of hate, others full of baloney, some just full of themselves, some seeming "saints", and all, anti-god. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 12:50:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
My dictionary says, "one who denies the existance of God"
Which dictionary are you using? If I had to guess, I would say Webster. Noah Webster was a christian apologeticist.
quote:
It's hard to deny what you haven't studied and most atheists I meet have studied the Bible quite a bit. Question is, what does an atheist actually believe in? Are atheists gods unto themselves?
Are we building strawmen? An atheist lacks belief. Why must you assume an atheist believes in some thing? Atheism is not religion, it is a lack of religion or religiosity.
quote:
Many of them write as if they know it all and are assurred of their non-belief. Most of them believe in evolution which reduces their arguments to those of simply another mammal, yet many of them lord it over other life forms and even eat them. Some have compassion on animals and fish, while hating other human beings. An atheist is a walking contradiction.
Again, you build strawmen arguments. Evolution has a solid evidentiary basis. Evolution is the best explaination we currently have for speciation. I'd also point out that religions also eat other animals and hate other human beings. This is humanity, not religion in action.
quote:
They can believe they are the lowly decendants of bacterium and at the same time, kill, rape, deceive, and bully the rest of the human race (U.S.S.R) into buying their beliefs.
The ideaology of the USSR aside, when have you seen atheists start a war to reclaim their 'holy land', i.e., the Crusades. When has an atheist declared that all non-atheists should be tortured, burned, killed, imprisoned, declared anathema? The USSR removed religion from their ideaology to make the state the highest power in the lives of the people. It wasn't because the USSR had been able to prove there was no god, or even shown that the likelyhood of a diety existing was nil, but it was a way for the state to gain power over the people, much like religions did and still do.
quote:
They talk acceptance and tolerance of others, yet try to eliminate other forms of religion that denounce them in a heart beat.
I don't care what you believe, just don't try to force me into accepting your belief. Live and let live.
quote:
Pig headed, egotistical, morons might be an apt description for some of them. Others have a soft approach and espouse intellectualism and science.
Your point? There are pig-headed, egotistical, morons that preach the gospel of their lord jesus christ. In fact, they seem more vociferous than the atheists I know.
quote:
Just as their are many "theistic" religions, so are their many atheistic religions, it seems, some militant, some pacifist, some learned, some ignorant, some rich, some poor, some full of hate, others full of baloney, some just full of themselves, some seeming "saints", and all, anti-god.
Huh? There are idividuals that call themselves atheists, there aren't any atheistic religions. There is no attempt in the atheist community to gather others unto themselves and influence their thought process. The very concept of atheism suggests those that have freed themselves of dogma and think based upon their own reasoning and ethics.
You are building an 'atheist' position that it is easy for you to knock down. You seem to allude to the concept that atheists are evil people for no reason other than that they are atheist. If this is what you see in people that do not believe as you do, I would look first to your own actions. If you require a god to keep you functioning in society, you must live a sad life indeed. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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