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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2002 : 07:41:58 [Permalink]
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RD quote:
One issue that must be dealt with up front is the question of what is meant by the term "evidence". Unfortunately, the term may legitimately be used in two related, but distinct, ways:
EVIDENCE can mean something that furnishes proof, or
EVIDENCE can mean something submitted as probative.
Using the second definition, you might submit any number of things as evidence, but that act of submittal does not relieve you of the burden of proof - you must show that the evidence is worth something.
As usual RD is confused as to the nature of any historical inquiry is always "probative"(unless your claiming you have mathametical "PROOF" that the Jesus of the NT didn't exist?).As far as who has the burden of proof I think I have established that when it comes to those who are experts in this field(Historians,Classical,and NT Scholars [even the Jesus Smear Group])that the existence of Jesus is one thr most established events of history,therefore any burden whould fall on those foolish enough to deny the obvious. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:35:05 [Permalink]
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| Sorry DA but if you had established anything, other than your blind adherence to an obvious fairy tale, you wouldn't have to keep calling everyone names, you could just present the evidence. Yes, the nature of any historical inquiry is indeed probative. That is, the valadity of a claim is based on providing proof or evidence. That is why Jesus fails as an historic figure as there is neither. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 09:49:06 [Permalink]
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Again I can't read page 11, sorry I'm not ignoring any posts since my last one. I just can't open them.
And no @tomic, I'm not going to get rid of my Mac |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 16:03:36 [Permalink]
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Boron was kind enough to E-mail me the copy I was missing.
Who borrowed this injunction from whom and how can one claim to tell? Did not Jesus precede Apollonious?
Apollonius was born in 4 BCE. Tyana is about 80 miles north of Tarsus. He was doing exactly the same healing miracles that Jesus was at exactly the same time. The difference being that he was recorded by history and Jesus was not.
Slater: Jews accuse Jesus of being possessed by Beelzebub; Jesus scorns his mom and brothers; to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that „they may be ever seeing but never perceiving; Lamp on a Stand; Parable of the Growing Seed -- Roman anti-Semitism.
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I fail entirely to see the anti-Semitism here.
The Jews are condemning GOD Himself. You don't get much more anti-Semiteic than that.
Slater: Beheading John the Baptist -- Roman anti-Semitism.
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What make you think that the gospel does not here record a case of actual Roman anti-Semitism? The Romans often acted against the Jews with lethal force, did they not?
Because the Romans don't behead God's good friend and mentor, John the Baptist in an orgy of sex and vice. The Jews kill him. Mark portrays the Jews as evil incarnate. A funny attitude for a book about a Jewish messiah.
Paintings on the walls of the earliest Christian catacombs in Rome, dating from slightly before 200 A.D., characteristically depict seven or eleven male figures, presumably apostles, seated at table, about to partake of two fish and five loaves...[and] two fish also appear accompanied often by five loaves of bread, in...early Christian funerary carvings and inscriptions.‰ It is „fairly certain...that either for Jesus himself or for quite early, and probably, Jewish Christians, the meal of bread and fish, of which we learn in the gospels, was understood as a eucharistic anticipation if not epiphanic participation in the blessed life of table-fellowship in the Kingdom of God.‰
There is a very strange claim that I've heard (on the History Channel) about the catacombs of Rome. That Christians dug them, Christians worshiped in them, and Christians decorated them. However (and this is where the claim becomes strange) the Christians were forbidden by their beliefs to make paintings of Jesus. So, instead, they decorated the catacombs with paintings of Pagan gods. Until 324 CE when the rules changed. I told you it was strange.
So before 324 you find Hercules slaying the Hydra. You find dolphins with grapevines twined around them-these bore the souls of Dionysians to heaven. You find several of a smiling clean shaven young man resurrecting a corpse by using a magic wand--this is Apollonious. You find paintings of the good shepherd, and the feast with bread and fish--these are Mithra.
But nowhere did these early Christians paint Jesus until 324. And yet the History Channel insisted that Christians in Pagan Rome painted the Pagan symbolism in their Christians place of secret worship.
For me, two different traditions, one of bread and fish, another of bread and wine, symbolically ritualized, after his death, the open commensality of Jesus' lifetime.
It was bread fish and wine actually, in Mithraism.
That disjunction possibly represented a Jewish Christian and a Gentile Christian development. It might be considered, however, whether bread and fish for the crowd and abundant fragments left over is a better ritualization of Jesus' own life than bread and wine for the believers with abundance now completely irrelevant.
Except making the bread and fish appear by magic is exactly what Magi (c) do. It's part of a common ceremony of the time. There was nothing odd, and nothing Jewish, about it.
Jesus was acting in the role of a traditional Jewish prophet, that is, anti-establishment. It should come as no surprise that the Jewish establishment reacted accordingly.
The book is presenting the Jewish establishment as hating, and later murdering GOD.
Indeed. I would not be surprised if this fellow‚s actual name was simply Simon.
"Upon this rock I shall build my church, " is something Mithra said. He was referring to the sacred rock from which he was born
Huh? Jesus spoke out against the upper class many times in the gospel of Mark, and even more time in Luke.
Exactly. Christianity was never meant for the upper Roman classes.
I believe it was Cicero who said "Everyone speaks of the gods, but no one believes in them." Jesus doesn't speak against the upper classes. That is painfully obvious. Jesus is making a virtue of poverty. Don't try to improve your lot in this life and I'll give you a treat in the next.
Was the fig somehow a key symbol of Mithra?
Yeah. The child Mithra was sheltered and clothed and nurtured by the sacred fig tree. The Mithric Church used the fig tree as a symbol of their faith and devotion. Now you see how it not bearing fruit and Jesus blasting it makes symbolic sense. As a real tree the story is silly.
Semite anti-Romanism, rather. The moneychangers were at the heart of Roman use of Sadducean Temple-centered (vice Pharasaic synagouge-centered) Judaism to control their conquered territory. The attack upon the moneychangers was an attack on the Empire, specifically its melding of church and state.
Not at all. The temple priests, the Jewish temple itself angers God. God attacks them-the heart of the Jewish religion.
'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' --Mithra
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Can I get a reference, please? I cannot seem to find this one.
Mithra's title was "The Good Shepherd"
Real-life Jews were crucified all the damn time, especially in the decades leading up to the Jewish rebellion. But they were left to rot on the cross. They didn't come back to life in three days. Mithra did.
Prometheus Bound
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I never would claim that said darkness was historical -- that aside, where can I get a copy of this play?
You left it in your version of Mark. It was written by Aeschylus.
But RD had a very good point. If Jesus comes from Pagan myth or he comes from Jewish myth he still comes from myth.
If you want to claim that Jesus is historic then you need somebody in history to hang the story on.
You can't say "maybe there was a Jewish Rabbi who…" because there weren't any Rabbis who.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2002 : 19:36:17 [Permalink]
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| This thread is getting too long, so I am starting a Part 4, here. Keep up the disucssions! |
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