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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2002 : 22:38:54 [Permalink]
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The CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/index.html
While most scholars agree that Jesus existed, no physical evidence from the first century has ever been conclusively tied with his life
This could be interesting though.
Real deal, old forgery, new forgery or coincidence?
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 01:17:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
The only reason that anyone thinks that Jesus ever lived is that a set of books written generations afterward, in a different country, in a different language said he did.
Not anymore, it seems. Check out http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/10/21/jesus.box/index.html
quote:
James, Joseph and Jesus were common names in ancient Jerusalem, a city of about 40,000 residents. Lemaire estimates there could have been as many as 20 Jameses in the city with brothers named Jesus and fathers named Joseph.
The inscription reads, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus," according to scholars.
But it is unlikely there would have been more than one James who had a brother of such importance that it merited having him mentioned on his ossuary, Lemaire said.
Just look for guys like Ray Comfort and Grant Jeffrey to jump all over this one. Now if only they could provide evidence of all of Jesus's miracles. (the people rising from their tombs when jesus died on the cross!)
Anyway, it looks like this thread's topic is all sealed up. At least for now.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 01:20:35 [Permalink]
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Oh, crap!! As usual, someone else beat me to it. Oh, well. Just ignore my last post then. 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 01:58:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
But it is unlikely there would have been more than one James who had a brother of such importance that it merited having him mentioned on his ossuary, Lemaire said.
Is is not common to mention surviving relatives on tombstones and obituaries? Why would be unusual to mention someone's brother on an ossuary?
-me. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 06:55:45 [Permalink]
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More box stuff:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992952
quote:
"It seems very probable that this is the ossuary of the James in the
New Testament," André Lemaire at the Sorbonne University in Paris writes in
the Biblical Archaeology Review. "If so, this would mean that we have here the
first epigraphic mention - from about 63 AD - of Jesus of Nazareth."
Hmmm, but the box did not say brother of Jesus of Nazareth or brother of Jesus Christ.
quote:
Lemaire's tentative date of 63 AD comes from the writings of a first century
historian called Josephus. He states that James, "the brother of Jesus", was
stoned to death in 62AD. At the time, Jewish burials involved placing the body
in a sealed rock tomb for a year, then collecting the bones and placing them
in an ossuary box.
So he gets the date from Josephus and voila the box has the right date! Marvelous scholarship!
The box can't be dated reliably, it has unclear history and is being investigated by believers.
Yawn!
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 11:26:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Starman wrote:
The box can't be dated reliably, it has unclear history and is being investigated by believers.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any reason to question the ethic or credibility of those doing the investigation?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 12:57:55 [Permalink]
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Just out of curiosity, do you have any reason to question the ethic or credibility of those doing the investigation?
I for one haven't seen mentioned anywhere who was investigating. But this is going to make a great mystery story á la the Maltese Falcon.
My guess is that the box itself is real and the inscription a fake. I've read one report that said that there was no indication of the use of power tools as though art forgers were that stupid and inept.
I'd also guess that André Lemaire is the patsy, the fall guy, and not the culprit.
"André Lemaire at the Sorbonne University in Paris writes in
the Biblical Archaeology Review. "If so, this would mean that we have here the first epigraphic mention - from about 63 AD - of Jesus of Nazareth.""
Lemaire is the guy who coincidentally found the only extra-biblical mention of the House of David. Seems too good to be true that he should just happen to run across this box of unstated origins at the home of an unnamed collector who--because he was a Roman Catholic--made no connection with the bibles Jesus for the 15 years he had the thing. (Did we mention that Yoko Ono said she never heard of the Beatles until she met John?) And the box will not be put on exhibition, which would indicate that it's up for sale.
According to Lemaire there would have been about twenty Jacobs at the time and place who also had brothers named Joshua and dads named Joe. How he arrived at this figure was not reported. So IF (big if) there was an historic Jesus and IF the box is authentic and IF his estimate is correct then there would be only a five percent chance that this was THE Jesus. Yet they've got Lemaire claiming that not only is bone box mentioning Jesus of Nazareth but that it comes from 63CE. Just having the box and no surrounding artifacts it would be impossible to know this date. If he has the knowledge that this script was only written at such and such a date then you can be sure that art forgers have also availed themselves of the same knowledge. This rather unscholarly enthusiasm that Lemaire is displaying is why I think that he isn't actually in on the job. The mysterious Catholic collector however…
Excuse me; I have to phone my associates Joel Cairo and Brigid O'Shaughnessy we need to take a hurried business trip. This dingus is the stuff that dreams are made of.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 13:18:07 [Permalink]
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The only thing that has bothered me about this are the headlines about "Proof of Jesus" when the whole thing emits a rank odor. But it's what you can expect from the press these days I suppose. No one with a half a brain could possibly think of this as anything that significant under the circumstances.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 13:31:02 [Permalink]
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I suspect that both the box and the inscription are "legitimate", but that the whole thing proves to be a non-event - except, of course, for BAR magazine sales. All of the more sober reports note that the names involved are very common, and that there is absolutely no way to ascertain which 'James" is being referenced.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 14:14:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
The only thing that has bothered me about this are the headlines about "Proof of Jesus" when the whole thing emits a rank odor. But it's what you can expect from the press these days I suppose.
If the dingus is legit then it is proof of A Jesus. But we already knew that it was a common name.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 14:29:55 [Permalink]
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It seems mighty fishy that someone that's had this bix for so many years suddenly releases this news and, as slater mentioned, its sale is implied. Timing is everything.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 19:33:41 [Permalink]
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Here's an interesting link
http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/archives/1996a/msg00155.html
Yehuda the son of Jesus, has a nice ring to it.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 19:52:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
slater:
Magical elements go a long way towards putting any story in the fiction section.
Why is that? Is not ancient history littered with such mythical accretions?
quote:
terg:
Again, I would be fascinated to learn where the Markan parables and the Q aphorisms may be found in presaged in Jewish, Greek, Persian, Indian, or any other cultures philosophy.
quote:
slater:
I dont know why you focus on minutia. I have never held that Christianity evolved from these earlier religions.
IIRC, you have claimed that none of Jesus sayings are original. I was hoping to hear about these particular “minutia” because they are the ones most widely held to be authentic, AFAIK.
quote:
slater:
What local hero?
The itinertant rabbi named Jesus, who is called Christ.
quote:
slater:
You keep bringing this speculation up without ever supporting it.
What would count as support? Do quotations from the man himself count?
quote:
slater:
You can be damned sure that if there was anybody on the ground then who even remotely resembled an historic Jesus the xians would be parading him through the streets.
Which Christians? The ones living back then? They had nothing to parade, not even a corpse. The ones living now? Ditto.
The best anyone could hope for was oral or written biography, and we have a few of those. We admittedly do not know to what extent that they depict actual historic events, but I am not so willing to toss out the baby with the bathwater -- history gets layered with myth all the time.
quote:
slater:
Somebody had to have written the parables and the aphorisms, sure---somebody who wrote in Greek, somebody who wasnt very good at geography.
Hw do you know they were originally composed in Greek?
Regarding geography, what poor geography is to be found in the earliest of the synoptics, and is it found in the narrative or the sayings? Is poor geography perhaps to be found in the Q sayings?
quote:
slater:
Superman has magic abilities and comes from a place that doesnt exist and has adventures with a group of people who also aren't recorded by history.
Whos |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2002 : 23:19:12 [Permalink]
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Magical elements go a long way towards putting any story in the fiction section.
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Why is that? Is not ancient history littered with such mythical accretions?
Because when something is fictitious it is imaginary. Magic does not happen in the actual world, only in people's imaginations. Therefore nonfiction stories do not have actual magic happening as their centerpiece.
slater:
What local hero?
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The itinertant rabbi named Jesus, who is called Christ.
There is no Rabbi, itinerant or otherwise, from this period named Jesus who was recorded by history. If he was not recorded you have no grounds to base a claim for him on. What is so hard about this concept for you? You can't just make up a "historic personage" because you would like him to exist. They were either recorded by history or they weren't. If they weren't you have nothing to base a claim on.
What would count as support? Do quotations from the man himself count?
You have no quotations that are verifiable.
There are plenty of quotations by Lord Greystoke in Tarzan of the Apes a book that states that he was a real person observed by witnesses. Yet Tarzan is fiction.
slater: You can be damned sure that if there was anybody on the ground then who even remotely resembled an historic Jesus the xians would be parading him through the streets.
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Which Christians? The ones living back then? They had nothing to parade, not even a corpse. The ones living now? Ditto.
Why is this so hard for you to understand. The Christians today have found no historic personage to point to as their Jesus. Nobody.
The best anyone could hope for was oral or written biography, and we have a few of those. We admittedly do not know to what extent that they depict actual historic events, but I am not so willing to toss out the baby with the bathwater -- history gets layered with myth all the time.
Since we do not know if they depict, even vaguely, historic events then we cannot claim that they do. You have neither a baby nor historic bath water. What you do have is a retelling of Hellenistic myths. What you don't have is an actual personage to pin them on.
Hw do you know they were originally composed in Greek?
All of the oldest NT's are in Greek, without exception.
Regarding geography, what poor geography is to be found in the earliest of the synoptics, and is it found in the narrative or the sayings?
Yes, narrative. A few towns are put in the wrong order.
Is poor geography perhaps to be found in the Q sayings?
Again with your ridiculous Q sayings. You can't keep claiming Q as a source. You have no Q; you have no idea if it even was attributed to Jesus.
slater:
Superman has magic abilities and comes from a place that doesnt exist and has adventures with a group of people who also aren't recorded by history.
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Whose history?
Any bodies history. Superman isn't historic.
Surely not that of the church. Did Jesus come from a place that does not exist?
Jesus of Nazareth. There isn't any Nazareth. The town called Nazareth today is named after the place in the bible.
Were Cæsar or other ancient figures of renown reputed to have magical abilities?
Are you making a point or do you just like to hear yourself type? This is starting to sound very much like Apologetics.
slater:
You cant be Superman or Jesus and not get noticed.
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You could be Clark Kent or Jesus the wandering rabbi and not get noticed. Is it possible that the personality of Clark Kent was based on an actual reporter of whom the author |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2002 : 00:03:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just out of curiosity, do you have any reason to question the ethic or credibility of those doing the investigation?
Yes. By reading the articles linked in this thread, it seems to me that there is a lot of wish full thinking from the people involved.
I'm not saying that they are liars, kooks or even wrong. I have only read what (christian?) journalists have reported. So far these reports give me NO reason to change my skeptical views on Jesus existence.
http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/bswbbar2806f1.html
BTW. I've found nothing on the box in the Swedish media. It's nice to live in a secular country.
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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