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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2002 : 11:07:42
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Inspired by a post in another thread...
I have found it puzzling when I hear things like, "Enjoy Your Freedom? Thank a Veteran!".
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the utmost respect for the military and our soldiers (I'm an Army brat, dad's a retired Colonel). And I certainly believe that WWII vets can be said to have been fighting for our freedom.
But with my admittedly superficial knowledge of the causes and implications and details of post-WWII wars that the US has fought, I find that I don't understand how any of my freedoms were in jeopardy based upon the outcomes of Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, etc.
Now in Iraq, I certainly don't need any convincing that we should have gone in there in 1991, nor do I need any convincing that we should do something about Saddam now. My questions deal solely with the claim that the military was "fighting for my freedom" in any of these cases.
Can someone enlighten me?
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 09/25/2002 11:09:51
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2002 : 11:12:36 [Permalink]
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Our freedoms, as we've seen in this so-called war on terrorism, are generally jeopardized BY war, not gained because of it.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 12:56:37 [Permalink]
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TD, the way many military personnel these days protect our freedom is through deterrence. We flex our muscles and show the other countries how much we can hurt them if they try to mess with us. This is not (obviously) 100% effective, but it does work.
Every individual in our military aids in this respect, at the very least as one more number. The fact that we choose to serve and keep our military operational earns us a part of the credit. We are, however, not the only group of people deserving thanks for our nation's freedom.
-me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 13:26:15 [Permalink]
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Thanks for pointing that out Boron10, I totally agree.
That doesn't, however, explain why the claim that fighting in the Vietnam war, for example, equates to protecting our freedom. I'm not making an argument or anything, I just honestly would like someone who thinks that to explain the reasoning.
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 16:48:29 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately these days, our men and women in uniform are misappropriated.
I believe that when enlisting in the military you take an Oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States.
Instead the military is called upon to protect the interests of Corporations, Election Year Politicians, and the United Nations.
Post WW2 Military can only really be thanked for cheap oil, career politicians, and hefty multi-billion dollar bills that the US alone pays for the UN whenever it gets a hair up it's butt.
Please don't take this as a slam on the men and women on in the Armed Forces, it is the people who tell the Armed Forces what to do that need to be sh.. er spanked. I am appalled that Congress and the Executive branch so willingly throws the lives away of people who thought they were sacrificing for the Constitution, instead they die for election year votes, OPEC, or good old-fashioned Imperialism(Wait it isn't Imperialism, our way is the right way! We are just trying to show everyone else that.)
Entropy just isn't what it used to be. |
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Mr. Skinny
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 17:07:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
TD, the way many military personnel these days protect our freedom is through deterrence. We flex our muscles and show the other countries how much we can hurt them if they try to mess with us. This is not (obviously) 100% effective, but it does work.
(snip)
I suppose I agree with Boron here also. Regardless of the political correctness of these conflicts when examined in hindsight, the veteran carried out the military will of the Commander In Chief, and as such, was protecting the Constitution. The leaders of the US may often be wrong, but the military is there to enforce US policy, be it right or wrong.
For that reason, I still feel bad about the fact that the American people couldn't separate the political decisions of the government during the Vietnam war and the soldiers that were sent to fight it. I think they were upholding their oath (even if unvoluntarily drafted to serve) and should be appreciated for that fact alone.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 17:08:55 [Permalink]
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It's my understanding that US does not pay much of anything involving the UN. I agree with the rest but the US has taken special care to disassociate itself from the UN unless it needs something that day.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 17:14:31 [Permalink]
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What evidence is there that a strong military protects freedom? Hitler had a strong military. The U.S.S.R. had a strong military. Sweden has a weak military. I'm not arguing, just asking.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 09/25/2002 17:15:39 |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 17:24:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's my understanding that US does not pay much of anything involving the UN. I agree with the rest but the US has taken special care to disassociate itself from the UN unless it needs something that day.
We still pay the highest membership "dues" of any country in the UN. We aren't reimbursed for this.
Anytime there is any action, especially military, the US makes up the largest portion of equipment, troops, intelligence, and logistics. We aren't reimbursed for this.
Anytime any large amounts of aid or equipment is needed, the UN looks to the US. We aren't reimbursed for this.
The highest price we pay is by slapping the United Nations patches on the shoulders of our troops who swore to defend the constitution, not the UN.
Entropy just isn't what it used to be. |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2002 : 19:31:38 [Permalink]
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I certainly won't disagree that our soldiers should never have that faggoty blue beret on thier heads. I was among a vocal few that championed Michael New when he refused to wear it. A bunch of us wrote letters of support during his confinement and discharge.
I take umbrage with the 'big bad US' conspiracy crap. The primary source of power for this particular conspiracy is the military, of which I served. So by extension, I am being accused of supporting, no perpetrating, this criminal conduct. I seem to remember handing out alot of food and medicine. Don't recall overthrowing any peaceful and democratic nations though.
To be part of some evil conspiracy of US tyranny, yet to have spent better than a decade FEEDING people instead of shooting them, seems an odd accusation.
More than just deterrance, we haven't just defended our freedoms, we've bestowed it upon many others. We believe in the IDEA of America, and you know, everywhere I've been (which is several stops on every continant except Aus) the people agree. I didn't see a single person in Kosovo that preffered Milosevic to the US. Never met a Kuwaiti that longed for the days of Iraqi occupation. Never met a Kurd that preferred tuberculosis over US medicine.
We don't gain nearly as much as we put into these countries, so I doubt highly we're 'conquering' them. There's no gain in that.
I find the whole US taking over the world conspiracy about as seriously as the moon hoax one. Having myself been the 'point of the US sword of global empire', I can tell you from experience that it just doesn't work like that.
The whole blame Bush thing doesn't wash either. First off, if it were really that way, we would have attacked 9 months ago when he declared Iraq an Axis of Evil. The fact that Saddam isn't a fading memory already is because the real world doesn't work that way. You're mistaking the Office of the President with Napolean's title.
quote:
Our freedoms, as we've seen in this so-called war on terrorism, are generally jeopardized BY war, not gained because of it
--Ah, the simplicity of ignorance.
You know, I can't really name a single impact on my daily life from 9/11, the Patriot Act, or any other chicken little proclimations. At worst, you'll have to show up to an airport earlier. Oh no, to actually get checked properly- how terrible. (I know, they're not very good, but the plan is okay)
Beyond that, not one of the paranoid ramblings about our freedoms dissolving after 9/11, have come true.
I don't see any connection in liberating a people held hostage under a maniac with a history of lobbing chemical weapons at his own people- and Americans suddenly declaring martial law.
It's chicken little paranoia. Sounds like a Planet X argument.
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 03:14:46 [Permalink]
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Thanks for confirming what I just said, Solly, but you didn't answer the question. How did slaughtering millions all over the world as well as destroying the enviroment in places like Southeast Asia and Iraq help gain me my rights?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2002 : 04:40:48 [Permalink]
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A brief history lesson:
http://members.aol.com/bblum6/parenti.htm#beginning
And a list of U.S. bombings of other countries:
http://members.aol.com/superogue/bomb.htm
China 1945-46
Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-1961
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Iran 1987
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-2000
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Plus?
China, 1999 -- its heavily bombed embassy in Belgrade is legally Chinese territory, and it appears rather certain now that the bombing was no accident (see chapter 25).
Bulgaria and Macedonia, 1999 -- both hit by US missiles during the bombing of Yugoslavia.
Pakistan, 1998 -- at least one missile fell on it during the bombing of Afghanistan.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2002 : 10:10:30 [Permalink]
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and your point is? We also dropped millions of bombs in Vietnam that killed nothing. No bad guys around.
I want to see proof of the millions slaughtered by the US. Better, why don't you compare that to a list of all the lives SAVED by US intervention. All the people who made it ONE MORE DAY because a US soldier was there with medicine and food. All the women of Kosovo who WEREN'T gangraped and sold as slaves among marauding units.
Or a comparison of the economic boon free and democratic nations get from trading with the US.
Yeah, oh so bad...
Bleed for me, I've bled for you. Embrace me child, I'll see you through. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 05:16:24 [Permalink]
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Ah good. All those bombs, all that napalm, all that Agent Orange never hurt anyone. It was all used to feed people. Wonderful.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 05:21:14 [Permalink]
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So, T.D., did you ever get an answer to your question?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2002 : 06:32:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, T.D., did you ever get an answer to your question?
No, not really, but that could be because perhaps no one here shares such a simplistic view of the topic. It is, after all, a bumpersticker sentiment...
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Topic Locked
