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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2002 : 14:20:59
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Forgive me if this sounds a bit confused, I can't remember all the facts but I know you good people will have the answers.
Wasn't there, a few years back either one person or a group who had a theory that AIDS was not a disease?
I don't mean like those extreme wackos who think the CIA caused it or that it was space aliens, but someone who did try to show some 'facts' about what it 'really' is.
Reason I ask, some of you may know that my brothers girlfriend IS a wacko about past life therapy and all that nonsense, she also believes that AIDS story and that it's not a real medical condition or some such idea. I want to be able to argue with my brother about it and show him that she's a nut. If she is! What is or was the latest news on this situation? Thank you.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2002 : 15:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
I saw a sign stapled to a lightpole at a traffic light giving this address:
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/
Haven't really looked into it.
Thanks Tokyo,
I did a search but didn't have time to look through the 7 billion sites and the 1st few didn't have anything like that. It's just what I was looking for.
I looked up Charles Geshekter from link from that site and got this (below). Hum! Looks like there is something to wonder about if Barbara Boxer is in the mix.
I still believe my brothers girlfriend is a nut but even a broken clock is right twice a day!
* * * * * *
THE PLAGUE THAT ISN'T
Poverty is killing Africans, not an alleged AIDS pandemic, says U.S. policy adviser
By Charles Geshekter
Globe and Mail (Toronto) 14 March 2000
The United Nations calls it the "worst infectious disease catastrophe since bubonic plague." U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer advocates spending $3-billion to "fight AIDS." And delegates at last month's National Summit on Africa in Washington pleaded for more money to wage war on AIDS. But the scientific data do not support these claims. The whole subject needs a healthy dose of skepticism.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 15:40:47 [Permalink]
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This article makes me a little hesitant as to the quality of their information.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pjthinking.htm
Anyone who considers Philip Johnson a reliable source on such a matter is a little out there, however a quick browse was all I done.
Edited to add this:
Dr. Phillip Johnson, Senior Professor of Law, University of California at Berkeley:
"That establishment continue to doctor statistics and misrepresent the situation to keep the public convinced that a major viral pandemic is under way when the facts are otherwise." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)
"One does not need to be a scientific specialist to recognise a botched research job and a scientific establishment that is distorting the facts to maximise its funding. That establishment continues to doctor statistics and misrepresent the situation to keep the public convinced that a major viral pandemic is underway when the facts are otherwise."
Now that's some serious allegations as well from the conspiracy freak P. Johnson.
Edited by - jmcginn on 10/04/2002 15:43:08 |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 15:45:33 [Permalink]
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Here is another quote I find of some interest:
Dr. Peter Duesberg, Professor of Molecular Biology University of Berkely:
"There are no slow retroviruses, only slow retrovirologists." (Spin June 1992)
"They have hyped up HIV into this super-rapist but in reality the damn thing can hardly get an erection." (Times of London 11 May 1992)
"Epidemiology is like a bikini: what is revealed is interesting; what is concealed is crucial." (PNAS Feb. 1991)
"When AIDS patients' bodies finally break down from the effects of these anti-viral drugs, they say, 'Now the virus has become resistant, and the drugs have lost their effectiveness.' What really is happening is the toxicity of the drugs builds up to a point where the patient cannot stand it anymore. And, of course, they say it was the virus -- rather than the entirely inevitable and predictable toxicity of these damned drugs."
Namely the last one. Were not people dying of AIDS long before they started coming up with all of these "toxic" drugs? Is he trying to say the people won't die if they are not giving treatment drugs?
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 19:18:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
"When AIDS patients' bodies finally break down from the effects of these anti-viral drugs, they say, 'Now the virus has become resistant, and the drugs have lost their effectiveness.' What really is happening is the toxicity of the drugs builds up to a point where the patient cannot stand it anymore. And, of course, they say it was the virus -- rather than the entirely inevitable and predictable toxicity of these damned drugs."
Namely the last one. Were not people dying of AIDS long before they started coming up with all of these "toxic" drugs? Is he trying to say the people won't die if they are not giving treatment drugs?
That's what I was thinking as I read it. There are people who don't take the drugs now and are dying.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 21:24:08 [Permalink]
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Here's a link to Quackwatch that provides a report supporting HIV as the cause of AIDS:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/hiv-aids.html
I just glanced at it, but it appears to be a very thorough discussion of the evidence for HIV. I don't think it addresses the alternative ideas but who cares. HIV causes AIDS. It's not your job to justify idiocy. Hand her the scientific evidence and have her rebut each piece. It probably won't stop her from believing her juju but it just might shut her up.
"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a
deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 23:27:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Here's a link to Quackwatch that provides a report supporting HIV as the cause of AIDS:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/hiv-aids.html
It's not your job to justify idiocy. Hand her the scientific evidence and have her rebut each piece. It probably won't stop her from believing her juju but it just might shut her up.
Another excellent link and a good point. Thanks.
This is the part that's really scary, listen to this....she's a teacher....in the public schools!!! (I can't believe a guy, my brother, who has an IQ of over 150 could be influenced by a bubble head like her. Must be her sweet southern Texas accent. )
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2002 : 23:38:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
This article makes me a little hesitant as to the quality of their information.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pjthinking.htm
Anyone who considers Philip Johnson a reliable source on such a matter is a little out there, however a quick browse was all I done.
Edited to add this:
Dr. Phillip Johnson, Senior Professor of Law, University of California at Berkeley:
"That establishment continue to doctor statistics and misrepresent the situation to keep the public convinced that a major viral pandemic is under way when the facts are otherwise." (Sunday Times (London) 3 April 1994)
Seems like any side who doesn't want the other to understand the facts use statistics pro or con.
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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sfnuser
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 03:36:55 [Permalink]
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Doubting that HIV causes AIDS Updated: May 23, 2001
Critics of the link between HIV and AIDS have raised the following key criticisms of the evidence:
* no animal model exists for AIDS; it is said to be impossible to inject an animal with HIV and cause AIDS
* viruses are said to cause disease quickly or never
* antibodies are usually protective, so why is it only HIV-positive people who develop AIDS?
* many cases of AIDS without HIV are claimed to exist, casting doubt on the role of HIV in the development of AIDS
* the failure of AIDS to spread outside the high risk groups is said to cast doubt on whether it is really an infectious disease
* HIV is claimed to be present in such low levels in the blood of people who are HIV- positive that it can't possibly cause disease. Furthermore, if it is so difficult to isolate, how come it's transmissible?
* the variance in the incubation period between infection with HIV and the development of AIDS is said to cast doubt on the link between HIV and AIDS
* the accuracy of tests for HIV is questioned
Animal models for HIV infection and AIDS
HIV belongs to a class of retroviruses called lentiviruses, or slow viruses, so called because they have been observed to cause disease slowly (Levy, 1993). The lentiviruses have a similar cellular and genetic structure, which is far more complex than other retroviruses. Three in particular have an almost identical structure – immunodeficiency viruses affecting cats, monkeys and humans. In each species, infection with the virus causes a similar array of symptoms – the loss of white blood cells bearing the CD4 marker, an illness just after infection and then a long period of CD4 cell loss before symptoms of severe immunodeficiency appear. In each species, antibodies against the virus are not protective.
Another curious feature of the immunodeficiency viruses which has given rise to misunderstandings is, by and large, their adaptation only to single species. Critics of the HIV-AIDS link have argued that because HIV does not cause illness in monkeys, it cannot cause AIDS in humans. However, there has been a report of a chimpanzee developing AIDS about 10 years after injection with HIV (Novembre, 1996), and it has also been demonstrated that baboons infected with HIV-2 developed an AIDS-like syndrome within two years of exposure (Barnett, 1994).
To establish that SIV is the true cause of an AIDS-like syndrome in monkeys, scientists have taken SIV and genetically engineered the virus to ensure that absolutely no other material from either the host animal or other infectious agents is bound up with the virus, and then injected it into monkeys to see whether it caused disease. These experiments showed that SIV alone, without any other agent, is capable of causing immune deficiency in a normally healthy monkey.
Each of the immune deficiency viruses has also been observed to cause CD4 cell loss in the body but not in laboratory culture, suggesting that these viruses interact with the host immune system to reduce CD4 cell numbers rather than killing CD4 cells directly.
Viruses cause disease quickly or never
This claim over-simplifies what appears to happen not only in HIV infection, but in many other infectious diseases. Many diseases are characterised by a relatively mild primary infection followed by much more severe illness later on. For instance, the primary infection seen in syphilis consists of a sore at the site of entry, followed by a rash and fever some weeks or months later. Left untreated, syphilis will subsequently develop into a much more serious disease in later years.
In all immunodeficiency virus infections, the primary infection features a fever and a period of enormous virus replication, followed by a very effective immune response which dramatically reduces the amount of HIV that can be detected in the bloodstream. Over a period of years the population of CD4 lymphocytes is reduced, although experiments wi |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2002 : 21:21:08 [Permalink]
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Of course Philip Johnson must deny that AIDS resistance is caused by a mutating HIV virus. He has a prior commitment to the falsity of evolution.
I wonder what his brand of allegedly secular intelligent design has to say about the intelligence behind the HIV virus? Maybe that has something to do with it as well - it must be an illusory illness, symptoms caused by the drugs, because his God would never inflict gratuitous suffering.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 01:13:06 [Permalink]
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Trust me HIV and AIDs are very real and any subject has its nuts who want to argue. Disputing AIDS is like diputing the Holocaust.
I do agree with some reservations with the idea that it is poverty that is the root of most deaths in Africa. Poverty is the number one factor in the health in most cultures. Where the ability to get education, medication and adequet healthcare to the majority of people whether in Africa or any other Third World Country along with the poor here in America the disease itself does not matter. You can't pay you die. As a physician it is one of the greatest shames of modern medicine.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2002 : 19:46:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trust me HIV and AIDs are very real and any subject has its nuts who want to argue. Disputing AIDS is like diputing the Holocaust.
"There is a virus called Human Immo-defiency Virus--HIV. It is called a retro-virus and it is not harmful--not every virus is harmful."
"There is no killer disease called AIDS. So that is why once you are tested for HIV, you can ruin your life if you believe in AIDS. "
"....doctors gave powerful cancer medicines like AZT to anyone who tested positive for HIV. Now, these poisons are so strong they would make you sick to your stomach and make your hair fall out. This is when you are not even sick."
These are some quotes I've been given. I've decided not to debate with him anymore because anyone who thinks like that has already made up his mind and won't listen to other facts.
Although I'd like to keep an open mind.
How is it that there are, so called authorities who believe in other than the conventional idea of what AIDS is?
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*Carabao forever
*SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES
www.CuriousCreations.com
*All lives are movie settings, it's what channel you're on that counts. Zatikia
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