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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2002 : 22:25:53
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Hey, thought the subject would get your attention. I'm new here, and I intend on making a difference. First off, I see that many people here, if not all, believe that the Bible isn't true. In fact, I think I'd be safe to say that you don't belive a word of it. Well start by reading this, http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-thermodynamics.html and reply if you want to know anything else. k? k.
Later,
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2002 : 22:44:03 [Permalink]
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*yawn*
If creationists actually understood the implications of some of their arguments, they would realize that the 2nd Law argument also invalidates things like building proteins from simple molecules using genetic blueprints within cells. Perhaps you'd like to try that argument on for size, jebusfreak?
double *yawn*
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2002 : 23:24:53 [Permalink]
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| We do have a folder for this debate. Instead of just deleting this, which I am tempted to do, why don't you take the fight over to the Creation/Evolution folder.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 06:44:53 [Permalink]
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Why do we put up with 'em?????
When one is born again, does one have to remove all abilities of critical thinking and understanding?
When will the deluded fools realise that.........aw f..k, I just can't be bothered.
I wish there was an afterlife, then I could gloat at those knobs, safe in the knowledge that I fornicated, masturbated, drank to excess and basically thouroughly enjoyed committing most, if not all, of their cardinal sins. All the while they have been bashing bibles and praising the lord/allah/vishnu/pat robertson et al. |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 09:59:42 [Permalink]
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What a laugh that site is! I love the part where they try to refute the fact that they don't know the difference between a closed system and an open one. I would love to see their personal systems closed-don't let any food, water or oxygen into their bodies-to see if they got the idea then.
Jesus F•••k here's a question for you--how can what the bible says be true when there isn't any god?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 11/13/2002 10:00:42 |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 14:49:25 [Permalink]
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Now, I respect people's choice to be in a religion or believe in whatever they want. BUT, as James Randi says, once they've tried to prove it, well then, it becomes a whole different matter.
Let's try not to resort to childish name calling, and have a civilized debate (I know you guys are probably sick of those by now)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 16:38:04 [Permalink]
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| Instead of finding fault, KW, why don't you lead us by example? |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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iisaac
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 17:01:56 [Permalink]
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Here's a good idea, "jesusfreak4life". Prove that a supernatural "god" exists. You'll get a million USD, if you do it for JREF: http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. Although I think you might have to coax "god" to apply.
But, in case you don't want to prove it to them, you can prove it to me. You may begin. |
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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 18:30:01 [Permalink]
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Ok, it seems like my plan's already starting to take affect... First of all, if anyone doesn't feel like going to the site I linked to, this is what the 2nd law is all about:
The second law is concerned with entropy (S), which is a measure of disorder. The second law says that the entropy of the universe increases. An increase in disorder (overall) is therefore spontaneous. If the volume and energy of a system is constant (or in order), then every change to the system increases the entropy (or disorder). This refers to a closed system.
If volume or energy changes, then the entropy of the system can actually decrease. However, the entropy of the universe does not decrease. The molecules in one's body exist in great order; this only happens because the entropy of the rest of the universe is increased to a greater amount than that of the entropy of the body which is decreased.I'll try and respond to every one of your replies in order ok?
PhDreamer: I tried on your argument and it actually fit pretty well! My answer comes in reference to the cell and organelles in the cell. So here goes.
One of the most important concepts in biology is that a gene (a length of DNA) codes for the production of a particular protein. Each gene codes for a different protein.
Proteins are made up from smaller building blocks called amino acids. There are 20 amino acids which occur naturally in living things and these can be arranged in any order, to make an almost infinite number of combinations. The order in which amino acids are arranged is dictated by the order of bases in the DNA of the gene which codes for that particular protein.
The process by which the code in the DNA is 'read' to produce a complete, active protein is complex. Firstly, a copy of the DNA template is produced in the form of messenger RNA. This process is called transcription. The messenger RNA passes out of the nucleus and into the cytoplasm where it becomes attached to ribosomes. The ribosomes complete the process, by 'knitting' together amino acids, according to the template that is encoded in the strand of messenger RNA. This stage of the process is called translation.
The completed protein chain is threaded into the lumen of the endoplasmic reticulum, where it folds up into a 3D shape. It is then either transported to the part of the cell where it is needed, or it is processed further as it passes through the Golgi body. The Golgi body, if you don't already know, is a cell organelle found in eukaryotic cells. It is a stack of flattened, membranous sacs which is associated with the endoplasmic reticulum - the network of membranes in the cell that are the site of protein synthesis. The Golgi body modifies proteins and fats by, for example, sticking sugar molecules onto them to form glycoproteins and glycolipids. These glycoproteins and glycolipids eventually go on to form bigger and better things when energy is added. Refer to the second paragraph where I said "If volume or energy changes, then the entropy of the system can actually decrease."
Kil: I appreciate you not deleting this topic, thank you.
welshdean: I'm sorry that you are such a confused person.
Slater: You're also confused. But I have a question, when you say, "I love the part where they try to refute the fact that they don't know the difference between a closed system and an open one." What part of the page are you refering to?? And what do you mean by it??
And the sentence right after that... "I would love to see their personal systems closed-don't let any food, water or oxygen into their bodies-to see if they got the idea then." I don't understand your point, if you even have one. Consider what it says on the page that tries to 'refute' the fact of knowing about open/closed systems:
"Open thermodynamic systems exchange heat, light, or matter with their surroundings, closed systems do not. No outside energy flows into a closed system. Earth is an open system; it receives outside energy from the Sun."
The human body can be called an open thermodynamic system. We are alive... we take in food, water, and other forms of nutrients... look at part of the definition that all living things need to live: LIVING THINGS OBTAIN AND USE ENERGY. We obtain and use energy right? If this doesn't counter your statement the way you would like, it's because I don't understand your point of view. If that's the case, please explain yourself a little better. Thanks.
Kilted_Warrior: Thanks for not trying to pursecute me as a Christian. BUT, it's not a religion. I am NOT a religious person. I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with my God. Just thought I'd make that clear. 
iisaac: I have no reason to prove to you or anyone else in this world that God exists. Have a little faith. 
Thanks for your comments everybody,
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| Edited by - jesusfreak4life on 11/13/2002 18:35:15 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:33:06 [Permalink]
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Slater: You're also confused.
I've been called worse.
"I would love to see their personal systems closed-don't let any food, water or oxygen into their bodies-to see if they got the idea then." I don't understand your point, if you even have one.
You don't understand a lot of things it appears.
The specious use of the 2nd Law of TD is to claim that people/animals cannot evolve because the are gaining entropy. To gain in entropy it is necessary not to increase the energy added to the system. That's the sole difference between a closed and an open system-the addition of energy.
Cutting off the addition of energy to Anti-intellectuals bodies by no longer adding food, water and oxygen it would give them a graphic demonstration of the difference between their gaining entropy as a closed system and not gaining it as an open one.
The human body can be called an open thermodynamic system. We are alive... we take in food, water, and other forms of nutrients... look at part of the definition that all living things need to live: LIVING THINGS OBTAIN AND USE ENERGY. We obtain and use energy right? If this doesn't counter your statement the way you would like, it's because I don't understand your point of view.
It's the second law you don't understand. It applies to closed systems. Only to closed systems.
Open systems purely by dint of their being open take on energy. By taking on energy entropy is overcome.
Because, and only because, the Sun supplies energy that you are able to add to your "system" as food you have been able to grow from a single cell to a grown human. Had your "system closed" at any time entropy would have set in almost immediately and you would turn to dust. BUT because you continually add energy to your system you have increased the "genetic
information" which is you by an order of millions. In other words you grew instead of died.
And that in a nut-shell is why you are able to evolve, and why only idiots who don't remember that they eat use the 2nd law as an argument.
Now if you are going to claim that the bible is true, that Genesis supercedes Biology 101 then you are going to-as iisaac said-have to prove that god exists. God is the base of your silly magical origins claim. And you ain't got no god. It won't do if you just disprove natural selection you have to prove your point.
Try not to be so credulous.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:01:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jesusfreak4life
I have no reason to prove to you or anyone else in this world that God exists. Have a little faith.
"The way to belief is short and easy, the way to knowledge is long and hard"- Ernst Stuhlinger
Taking the lazy way out, are we? |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:19:26 [Permalink]
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JebusFreak, you appear to be nothing but a walking, talking creationist cliche. Honestly, 2nd Law nonsense, Christianity not a religion, have faith? You must be a real internet newbie because these trite arguments have become mere caricatures of themselves. They are not taken seriously anymore.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:27:06 [Permalink]
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Slater, ok, everything you just said I already knew. The two statements you tried to refute weren't refuted in my mind. They didn't oppose anything that I had said. You basically just said what I said, only in different words.
And about being called worse, probably, but I wasn't calling you anything but confused. It was supposed to be taken as an insult or anything. B/c I wouldn't like to be insulted. That wouldn't be loving your neighbor as yourself.
And as for the subject on the Bible, yes, it is true. Think about this, since absolutely not one Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin? And how do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe? What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible? How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message??
I can't see how anyone can try and disprove the Bible. And as for God, I know He's real. I know Him. Since I've become a Christian, I've felt God numerous times in my everyday life. I guess the only way to prove that God is there, is for the misguided person to feel God himself. Once a person knows, there's no turning back. How old are you? You seem like an intelligent person so I'd say you're around... 30 or 40? A big thing I don't understand is why someone of intelligence can be so lost in the lies, and have such a closed mind to the truth. Here's another question... Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers? Have you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and dead, have been men and women of great faith? I haven't b/c I know why they were/are. They were just that intelligent.
Later,
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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:40:13 [Permalink]
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The Rat: It's not as easy as it seems when dealing with not believers.
PhDreamer: I know that these things I say aren't normally taken seriously anymore. This is because Satan has been brainwashing the people of this planet for far too long. But they have not "become mere caricatures of themselves." These arguments are all clearly represented in the Bible. All except maybe for the 2nd Law. But it does say we were Created (which we were). That's all the depictment I need.
And why do you keeps refering to me as JebusFreak? It's JESUS, I'd appreciate it if you could get it right. Thanks
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 22:44:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
We do have a folder for this debate. Instead of just deleting this, which I am tempted to do, why don't you take the fight over to the Creation/Evolution folder....
Ooops. I got confused. I had been bouncing around, re-selecting icons for those who hadn't done it and lost my way, apparently. By the way, those of you with no icon chosen, still have to update your profile by choosing "None."
As for the contents of this thread, oy.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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iisaac
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 00:24:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jesusfreak4life
iisaac: I have no reason to prove to you or anyone else in this world that God exists. Have a little faith.
Thanks for your comments everybody,
- You want people to believe in a "supernatural God" (henceforth "Mickey")
- You don't want to prove the existence of Mickey
When I asked you to prove Mickey exists, solely for the purpose of making me a believer (and ignoring any other rewards), you chose to neglect making me a believer. You dismissed my request, which would have made me a believer if fulfilled.- You would rather not make me a believer
Thank you for not wasting time. |
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