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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2002 : 03:51:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
welshdean: I'm sorry that you are such a confused person. Slater: You're also confused.
WE are confused huh? Then you, yes, you jebusfreak, go on to state...
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not one Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds)
Show us evidence of just 1, I don't mean self fulfilling prophecies, I mean 1 solid unambiguous prophecy and the evidence thereof.
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How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message. {emphasis mine}
You have got to be kidding, they don't agree about who was at the tomb of jesus, the most pivottal point in the claptrap you fall for every Sunday.
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I can't see how anyone can try and disprove the Bible.
Nobody need disprove it, the contradictions prevalent throughout do a better job than any man could!
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Satan has been brainwashing the people of this planet for far too long.
With his red skin, horns and cloven feet, or was he dressed in a snake outfit!!!! COME ON!!
Incidentally Satan, whom you love to dis, was the person that gave you free will. Thats your xtian gratitude for you.
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why someone of intelligence can be so lost in the lies, and have such a closed mind to the truth.
Quite wrong here too. It's the prevalence of intelligence that dictates that nobody on this site believes blindly, as you do, the superstitious nonsense found in all religions. Incidentally, critical thinking and closed mindedness do not make good bedfellows on the other hand, religion and closed mindedness are rampant fornicators
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Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers?
Easy answer to this one too, simply to avoid persecution!! I'm thinking Galileo and Kepler. What a way to get people to believe eh! Because they didn't 'toe the xtian line' they (and/or their families) were subjected to incarceration and physical abuse. You evidently don't believe in science.... but we won't hang, draw and quarter you!! But I'd like to H/D/Qtr a few of your kind.
As an afterthought, I really don't care why you think Slater and I are confused, but if you would like to give your reasons to the forum, it may further illustrate your ignorance to us all. |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 04:38:26 [Permalink]
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Uncle Jerry, is that you?
If so, I guess I'd better tell you that no, I haven't gotten 'Saved' yet. It ain't likely I'm going to, so there's need for more preachin'.
Evolution is a hoax, huh? I might be interested in evidence other than that tired, old 2nd Law saw, which Slater has explained for at least the thousandth time. Very old news, that. How 'bout running the, "No transitional fossils!" by us? That always gets a good discussion going.
Welcome to SFN!
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 05:10:36 [Permalink]
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Hello JesusFreak. I would like to say welcome. I am happy to read a different opinion every now and then, even if I've seen it hundreds of times before. A little change never hurt.
Anyway, thanks for the lecture on the 2nd law and genetics. However, I fail to see how your arguments are supposed to support your faith. Then again, I am merely a lowly laborer. There are many aspects of this world that I fail to grasp. Anyway, if you have problems with the laws of thermodynamis also, perhaps you should study the work of Ilya Prigogine concerning thermodynamics and nonequilibrium. I tried years ago, and gave up. It was far beyond my modest intellect. However, you seem to be prepared for the task. I would love to learn how Prigogine got it wrong. Perhaps, the Nobel committee would, too.
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Think about this, since absolutely not one Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?
Here, I must say that you seem to be reading biblical prophesy through magical glasses. Which prophesies are not self fulfilling, cannot be explained by 20/20 hindsight, or are not just plain wrong, or probably not prophesies at all?
Allow this: If the bible is the inerrant word of God, and all prophesies are assumed to be 100% accurate, then just one innaccurate prophesy will invalidate the credibility of the bible. In which case, I will quickly present the prophesies against Tyre in Ezekiel. Among the many problems here, a couple stand out; Nebuchadnezzar never conquered the island in his 13 year seige, and Tyre was not permannetly destroyed, since having been constantly inhabited since that time, it still exists to this day.
Let me, also, mention that in Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, 16:28 and 24:34, and in Luke 21:32 the Gospels clearly state that Jesus will return within the disciples' litetime. Obviously, the disciples have been gone for nearly two thousand years, and Jesus is yet to return.
There are many other problems with Biblical prophesy. For instance, Matthew tells us that the betrayal and death of Judas was foretold by Jeremiah, but poor confused Matthew sites verses from Zechariah.
Numerous problems with prophesy exist begining in Genesis and lasting through until Revelation. I have been unable to find even one that is not inaccurate, or otherwise easily explained, or not simply a product of selective interpretation. Mostly, I feel that they are just wishful thinking on the part of the believer.
As a matter of fact, Biblical prophesy is one of the major reasons that I find some Christians to be quite immoral. I have much difficulty holding my tongue when people use apocolyptic prophesies to condone their lack of caring for the health of our planet, and the legacy that we will be leaving to our children and grandchildren. This notion that Jesus will be coming soon, and therefore there is no need to look toward the future when it concerns the planet we all share is simply evil, and a reflection of hedonistic desires. And, that's coming from someone often accused of being a hedonist! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 09:33:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
As a matter of fact, Biblical prophesy is one of the major reasons that I find some Christians to be quite immoral. I have much difficulty holding my tongue when people use apocolyptic prophesies to condone their lack of caring for the health of our planet, and the legacy that we will be leaving to our children and grandchildren. This notion that Jesus will be coming soon, and therefore there is no need to look toward the future when it concerns the planet we all share is simply evil, and a reflection of hedonistic desires. And, that's coming from someone often accused of being a hedonist!
Ah yes, prophecies. Where would we be without them, especially the wonderful, Rapture / Armageddon kind. For as long as there have been religious texts, various dingbats have been making a great to-do over our immediate and bloody (scorched, drowned, pick yer own way out) demise. Here's one of my favorite links to such nonsense:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html
Enjoy!
f
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 10:33:15 [Permalink]
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Slater, ok, everything you just said I already knew. The two statements you tried to refute weren't refuted in my mind. They didn't oppose anything that I had said.
Okay, I'll give it another try. It's rather basic logic so I won't quit until I've made myself clear.
What you were contending-through your reference to the website-is that, despite evolution being an observable fact it doesn't happen--it can't happen--because there is universal entropy. All things tend towards chaos. But, as you have stated, you know that there isn't universal entropy. You know that living, biological, things are "open systems" which means that as they dissipate energy (entropy) they simultaneously take on new energy (eat) in greater quantities than they lose it. Instead of falling into entropy living things actually increase in energy--in other words, they grow. Therefore the basic premise that living things are subject to the 2nd Law of TD is false.
not one Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?
That's complete stuff and nonsense. The Bible CLEARLY states that Isaiah-big time prophet Isaiah- prophesied that King Ahaz would be victorous over the Syrian-Isralite armies. The Bible also CLEARLY states that Ahaz was defeated. The bible Clearly states that Jesus will return in the lifetime of people who we know died two thousand years ago.
And why would predicting the future even indicate "divine origin"? I would think that would point more towards fortune telling Gypsies or Jean Dixon and the check-out line tabloids.
And how do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?
Very little of the universe is orderly (we happen to live in a pocket of order) but rather it clearly shows itself to be the aftermath of an explosion. There is no "design" in the universe. That is just you anthropomorphizing.
What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?
What do you say to the fact that there isn't any historic Moses, or Abraham, or David, or Jesus?
How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to author one unified message??
Editing. Nothing magic about it.
Surely you know that there were many more books to the holy bible before it was edited. The Gospel of Mary, the Sophia of Jesus Christ, The Acts of John, the Apocryphon of John, etc., etc. The list goes on and on. All wound up in the circular file. Same hold true for the OT too. How come you don't know this?
How do you figure that the OT and the NT have a unified message when the Catholic Church had to shuffle all the books of the OT around to make it appear that it had something to do-if only vaguely-with Jesus (see Jack Miles Pulitzer Prize winning GOD a biography)
And as for God, I know He's real. I know Him. Since I've become a Christian, I've felt God numerous times in my everyday life. I guess the only way to prove that God is there, is for the misguided person to feel God himself.
This is a ridiculous claim. All you are talking about is your emotional state and your inability to separate fantasy from reality. I have heard Shaman in New Guinea and Africa make exactly the same claims about gods you've never even heard of.
Try making this silly claim about any other existential question. Try it with the question "is there any baloney in the refrigerator."
I feel that there is lunch meat in my life. The only way to know if baloney exists is to have a personal spiritual relationship with Oscar Mayer.
Sounds pretty stupid doesn't? You know that the only way to tell if there is baloney in the frig is to open the door and look.
That's what science does, it asks questions and it opens the door and looks.
You seem like an intelligent person so I'd say you're around... 30 or 40?
Thank you, I'm a Ph.D. if that sort of thing holds any water with you. But you are off in age by a generation.
A big thing I don't understand is why someone of intelligence can be so lost in the lies, and have such a closed mind to the truth.
If you'll check the above you will see that I am the one who is asking for proof-that indicates that my mind is quite open. Having observed the proof, and the lack there of, the only logical conclusion to be reached is that you are the one who has been deceived by lies. But don't worry, you have come to the right place. We can save you.
Why have so many of history's greatest thinkers been believers?
Because until quite recently if you didn't lie and say you were a believer the Christian Church would murder you. Great thinkers have always suffered at the hands of the religious and many chose not to die.
Have you ever wondered why thousands of intelligent scientists, living and dead, have been men and women of great faith?
You will find that the AAAS did a survey of scientists in 1999 about their beliefs. The vast majority of them are Atheists, until you get to the nations top people--ALL of them are Atheists.
Now, why if the opinion of intelligent scientists is important to you (and you are talking to a scientist now) do you reject the fact of evolution? Why do you give the URL of crack pots instead of those who are doing actual science?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 11/14/2002 10:51:09 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 10:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jesusfreak4life
PhDreamer: I know that these things I say aren't normally taken seriously anymore. This is because Satan has been brainwashing the people of this planet for far too long.
Interesting. How would I differentiate being brainwashed by Satan and just being moderately intelligent, logical and observant? And how do you know Satan has any influence over me? Did he tell you?
quote:
But they have not "become mere caricatures of themselves." These arguments are all clearly represented in the Bible.
Lots of things are represented in the Bible ("clearly" is debatable). Like, say the value of pi, or cud-chewing rabbits, or four-legged insects. Or, say the Noachian flood, for which you have zero evidence, at best. Would you like to make a case that the Bible is inerrant?
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All except maybe for the 2nd Law. But it does say we were Created (which we were). That's all the depictment I need.
It must be nice to be so easily convinced.
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And why do you keeps refering to me as JebusFreak?
Not my fault. Blame Homer Simpson.
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It's JESUS, I'd appreciate it if you could get it right. Thanks
Sorry, new habits die hard.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
| Edited by - PhDreamer on 11/14/2002 10:48:26 |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 10:58:46 [Permalink]
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This guy is a joke. He needs to go back to college and get some education. Then we can talk, but not until then. Cut him off.
I wish he could see how foolish he really is. For us, a discussion of issues in evolution are an academic excercise, but this guy is struggling for his life, if he can't prove that Genesis is absolutely true, he loses his everlasting life. Think about it. I'm glad I'm not in his intellectual shoes. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 12:18:47 [Permalink]
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"And how do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?" [JF]
If that is so, JF, then how come so many comets, meteors and asteroids, crashed, bashed, smashed and cratered themselves onto the surface of every planet in our solar system? Doesn't appear that God has a very good traffic pattern worked out. The surface of the moon is testament to lousy "flow control".
I like your signature line, BTW. It's so unobtrusive and humble.
(:raig
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 12:21:34 [Permalink]
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Chainsaw if you cut these people off they consider it a triumph. They see themselves as martyrs. You'll notice that this one took the standard path of coming in on the attack and then complaining that he was attacked. The religious have this strange idea that they can present any ridiculous concept and because they present it as religion escape ridicule. That assumed immunity dates back to a time that the church was a physical danger to anyone who disagreed.
The most we can do is show him where he is wrong and hope that he can understand the concepts that are presented to him. And if not him, then hope to reach some of the "lurkers" who don't feel that they have enough information to participate in the conversation but are, nonetheless, interested in the topic.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 12:41:43 [Permalink]
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Lets hear some of those "hundreds" of predictions that you say came true. Were they like Nostrodamasus? So incredibly vague, and given all the time in the world to come true. And that is if you disregard all the ones that are already untrue, it is hard to find many that are right.
Please, JebusFreak2live, if you are going to argue, take a high school science course, and learn what thermodynamics, evolution, and the disorder of the universe have to say for themselves... |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2002 : 22:35:51 [Permalink]
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Yas are pilling-on a bit, huh, Elvis has left the building. Did like one statement, edited, that JF made,"I guess the only way to prove that God is there, is for the misguided person to feel God himself." Doesn't require any 'scriptures' at all. Concede yer response as a valid interpretation of such a common experience shared by humanity through out history, even today's history. At least it isn't a complete denial of such experiences. It isn't illegal yet, and can make yas feel pretty good for a spell. Oh well, ground well covered... |
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KoHein
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 01:42:58 [Permalink]
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| What I don't understand is how can people say that one day all the energy will have been used up wen everyone learns that energy cannot be destroyed it can only be transformed into other types of energy. The site goes onto to say that the universe eventually is going to be a bunch of atoms floating around wen in fact mass and energy are related in some way. We know that atoms in nuclear fusion and fission grow smaller and hence this mass is released as energy, therefore how can all the energy be used up and yet atoms are left floating around!>??? If evolution is a hoax then how come we never find fossils as old as dinosaur fossils that represent exactly how humans are supposed to look today?!? obviously it suggests that humans came after the dinosaurs. which disproves the theory of all organisms been created in one go (7 days wotever). |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 13:25:03 [Permalink]
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Hello KoHein. I can't answer your first question, but the second is simple. It's called Flood Geology. Real simple concept! First, we put an impossibly large amount of water on the face of the planet in a very short time, and within a year we drain it all off. I assume that it would drain from the edge of the flat earth. This year long draining process carves out all of the predominant land features.
Of course, this draining and carving process has very little to do with the already deposited foosil record, which was laid down within the first month of the great flood. Here, we see that the most primitive 'appearing' animals drown first, and quickly sink to the bottom. Then, the slightly more advanced drown, and on up the ladder of 'kinds'. Why this orderly drowning takes place is due to the fact that more primitive 'appearing' animals are slower, heavier, or just too damned dumb to get out of the way.
The dumb part is the most likely scenario, because that would explain the mass suicide rates of the more primitive fish, and soft bodied animals which are now extinct. Also, we shouldn't forget the plants. Those plants like grass, and willow and oak trees somehow found a way to float longer than the fern trees. Hence, we must also have dumb plants.
Anyhow, I hope you got that. If not, you can always go to the Institute of Creation Research, and ask Henry Morris. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 11/15/2002 13:37:52 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 13:43:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hello KoHein. I can't answer your first question, but the second is simple. It's called Flood Geology. Real simple concept! First, we put an impossibly large amount of water on the face of the planet in a very short time, and within a year we drain it all off. I assume that it would drain from the edge of the flat earth. This year long draining process carves out all of the predominant land features.
I find this whole concept highly amusing. I read a while back (no reference, sorry) that the water would have had to come down, or up, whatever, at a rate of something like eleven feet an hour to have equaled Noah's Global Flood in the time it took to happen.
Can you imagine what that would have done to the topsoils of the planet? And can you imagine being in it in an over-large, over-loaded, ship made of wood? (chuckle) You wouldn't be in it very long! You'd most likely end up at the bottom of the Marianas Trench along with the topsoil.
But, you gotta love it, if only for the conformation of P. T. Barnham's Theory.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 14:09:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Hello KoHein. I can't answer your first question, but the second is simple. It's called Flood Geology. Real simple concept! First, we put an impossibly large amount of water on the face of the planet in a very short time, and within a year we drain it all off. I assume that it would drain from the edge of the flat earth. This year long draining process carves out all of the predominant land features.
I find this whole concept highly amusing. I read a while back (no reference, sorry) that the water would have had to come down, or up, whatever, at a rate of something like eleven feet an hour to have equaled Noah's Global Flood in the time it took to happen.
Can you imagine what that would have done to the topsoils of the planet? And can you imagine being in it in an over-large, over-loaded, ship made of wood? (chuckle) You wouldn't be in it very long! You'd most likely end up at the bottom of the Marianas Trench along with the topsoil.
But, you gotta love it, if only for the conformation of P. T. Barnham's Theory.
f
Yes that is one of my favorite parts as well. I once used the Grand Canyon in a an argument against Karl Crawford/YEC/Kacey showing that the sedimentation rates were over 9" a minute and that's if I was very generous allowing 7 months for them to accumulate and now allowing for any of them to erode away. During this time we have things like scorpions and lizards leaving trackways and things like delicate coral being preserved not to mention large whole fern fronds.
His reply was that that the lizards and scorpions survived on floating mats of vegetation and during periods when land was exposed hopped off left their tracks and then hopped back on. All this despite the fact that the layer where their tracks are found is considered by geologists to be a desert and not one piece of large fossilized vegetation has ever been found there (Coconino sandstone layer). When you start to consider all of the impossiblities here it becomes quite clear that creationists will do anything to protect their belief. |
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