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a65phalcon
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 12/01/2002 : 21:58:01
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I have a severe distaste for the organization called the church. Here I am in my mid 20s and I have just now found the joy of Christ. It is my feeling that the very hate and discontent that Christ preached about is very evident in the church. Ever since the Constentine the church has been a money market scheme. They ask for people to drop all common understanding of the world and buy into a system that is greatly flawed. Not that there are any perfect systems, but the sanctity of the church should be based on the actual teachings of Christ. I find myself dredging attending church just based in the fact there are so many stupid christians out there. Lets face it, the Bible is a great source of info, but it is a book written by man and published into several different languages that are far from the orgianl text. Am I to believe that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights exactly? Probally not. But the fact is those stories or parables are meant for spirtual means rather than factual accounts. I dont know of too many literate slaves or peasants from olden times. I am not saying this to piss off the devout christians, but it makes me mad to see a great majority of christians shuting out left and right on this board, when in actuality they are just church going drones. The church often forget the most important issue of Christ. He taught the peace of man, but here we are in chaos mostly because we forget the very things he dyed for. The church is the very organization that more often than not causes such feuds. i.e. Gays in the church. Am I gay? No. But I believe that if they want a relationship with Christ and the church then they should have it. Chirst himself said " let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Does this call for us to judge them or to let God do it? If you go by the Church they should be banded. The problem with some people who believe is the fact that they forget God gave us this analytical brain to do just that.....analyze. God shows himself in everything but you have to be willing to see it. He does not ask you to go blindly into belief, but he does ask for your faith. Faith in itself is a strange thing. I accounted my finding of Christ to a friend recently. I told him that God was like the alarm clock in the dark that is trying to wake you. You know he is there but sometimes you just cant find Him. I have a hard time understanding the view points of the church because the relationship I enjoy with Christ isn't imbeaded in rhedorict but established in love. I know this may seem like the rambling of an idiot, but I would much rather see someone find the true nature of Christ and God, rather than be sold on the BS of the church. Someone just explain to me why the church is full of tools and drones. Oh yea sorry for the spelling errors but I am just too lazy to dwell into them.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 22:41:38 [Permalink]
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But the fact is those stories or parables are meant for spirtual means rather than factual accounts.
There is no such thing as "spiritual."
This is a two thousand year old work of fiction. God and Jesus are only characters in a story. They only exist between the bibles covers, not in the real world. They are just superheros in a piece of poorly writen pulp fiction that is less believable than a comic book.
Get a grip on yourself. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 22:58:17 [Permalink]
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Since when was the "church" any one organization? I hear this talk about the belief is good but the church is bad when there isn't any one church. Personally, I think the Bible is a useless book from a bygone era with nothing in it that relates to today's modern world no matter how much you try to distance yourself from it. You keep saying it's the church but it's the Bible and everything in it that are bad.
Why apologize for it? Just give it up.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 23:31:43 [Permalink]
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This is a two thousand year old work of fiction.
Talking to a65phalcon prior, I think he knows that. He and I have totally different views on the bible, god, and jesus. He is a Christian, I am an agnostic. But from what I have understood from what he said is that he basically looks at the bible in a metaphorical sense. Which, even though I disagree with his devotion, I can respect the fact that he has it. He is still a good person with a good heart.
I think I would agree with Slater that jesus has been written as a superhero - hell they made an action figure out of him, didn't they.  (Still can't make up my mind whether he existed or not - nice thread in forum going, btw.)
What I want to ask you a65 is, how can you define your "spirituality" from a book like the bible. (Please excuse my ealier assumption if I am wrong in asserting that you look at the bible as a book of metaphores.) To me that would seem like I could goto any book of poetry and start spouting gospel.
Forgive the generalization, but I think you get my point.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 23:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
But from what I have understood from what he said is that he basically looks at the bible in a metaphorical sense.
This is what you do when you realize you can't actually follow this book in today's age. I don't even know how you can follow it metaphorically if you are intellectually honest. To do this they are just casting a blind eye to what we today consider to be wrong if not horrible and rewriting the rest to suit their needs leaving them with a Jesus character that is not the same as the one in the Bible. An honest person would just say, "This is utter rubbish." and be done with it.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 23:59:53 [Permalink]
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God shows himself in everything but you have to be willing to see it. He does not ask you to go blindly into belief, but he does ask for your faith.
I have a real problem with this. I went with Boron one day to this church for a report he did in one of his classes. (I can't remember the name of the denomination, help me out Boron.)
The preacher talked (for a long time) about the reason many people can't find god is because they have hardened their heart. One can't see god if they are not "ready" to believe. He then went into this long discussion about how to "open your heart to god." But through all this guys ramblings, all I could get from it was "you just gotta believe..." How can one give away their lives to something when there really isn't anything there but a bunch of teachings from people claiming to be holy men.
I guess my question would be, what is the justification for devoting one's entire life to this?
Faith in itself is a strange thing.
When referenced to religion, I would have used the word scary. |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 00:13:58 [Permalink]
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This is what you do when you realize you can't actually follow this book in today's age. I don't even know how you can follow it metaphorically if you are intellectually honest.
Yes, I definately agree.
But in another justification, how about morally honest?
To do this they are just casting a blind eye to what we today consider to be wrong if not horrible and rewriting the rest to suit their needs leaving them with a Jesus character that is not the same as the one in the Bible.
I believe this would be the same. Trading accuracy for a metaphorical morality lesson.
Personally I don't think its necessary, but not necesarily wrong either. As long as the person's morality doesn't affect my life. (I know that just isn't the case... [cough] Bush [cough] Republican party [cough] )
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a65phalcon
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 00:52:48 [Permalink]
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Wow...so many hard pressed words. Maybe I would have some support from the drones if I wouldn't have singled them out. Lets be honest there is no proof as to the true exsistance of God or Christ. However there is also no relevant dis-proof. I could play fiddler to both sides but I will not because I have found a true heart felt relationship. I dont know how many of you have wives or hubands, but if you really truely love them you would know that you would gladly give way to your life, for the sake of thiers. This is the bond I share with God, I cannot greatly explain those feelings in a fashable sense, on the same note I cannot greatly explain the feelings I share with my wife. But for one reason or another I feel this way. The very heart and mind God has granted us (in my view) is the very reason why there is a great disbelief in Him. It is my belief He planned it that way. If you were for instance a great and loving leader, would you want your people to follow you blindly into battle based solely on the fear of your power. Or would you have your people follow you by choice knowing that every man and woman would gladly die to protect their envision of life? @tomic raises a valid point. DOes the Bible fit into todays standards? Although I do not agree with his sultle hints that my faith is a defunct one. I do agree that many find faith or their version of faith in a defunct manner. Living only accordingly to their wishes and not Gods. Do I live every waking moment worring as to weither or not I will make it into heaven? No nor should I. I feel that many people in this forum rip of belief because they find it easy to do so. You have no challeneges. I do not want to eem that I am selling these people short but it is human nature to be doubtful and challenging. I am just asking that rather than post messages siting text word for word, analize and explain your retorts in a logical manner. There are very few om eother side of the fense that do this. Rather than blwoing the hypothetical rasverry in my face ( Ne Ner NE nER Christ didnt exstist or he did) base your statements off of feelings and emotions. Our world is not defined by exact science because their is no such thing. Our paradigns are defined but what will are willing to experience and thinkl through. Most of the spritual followers on here subscribe to the knowsense of church doctorine while dismissing their feelings as trivia in the debate.
#1 The Bible, while not an exact histroic record offers insist into the past. For as many studies that disprove the existance of Christ, there are just as many that proove he walked this Earth. Author and Scholar Lee Strobel, a one time agnostic poses the question "Was God telling the truth when he said, You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart?" The fact is the Bible shows those who seek its knowledge the answers to such questions.
#2 My feelings and misgivings inview of the church are deeprooted. The fact is the church as a whole, weither it is Moron, Catholic, Baptist, is in the whole sense of the word an organization. Theyre parts are interchangeable and the function based on a common doctorine. They are more often than not driven by money and pwoer rather than the true nature of the teachings of Christ. A good parallel of this very nature in drawn and outlined in the movie series the Godfather. All be it godfather 3 was horrible, its counterpart written by Puzo was brilliant. "He who controls the most chickens controls the mosr eggs". The church in generalis and was the driving force behind major historical events. Did Pope Pleasant really see a nessicity to convert thousands of Muslims to Christ during the 3rd crusade? Probally not, but he and the King did see the great wealth offered by gaining control of such land. Also let me state that not all people in the guruch follow such dealings. My grandparents havce been devout Christians for 80 some odd years and they are hands down a pair of the greatest people I know. But the upfront leadership has to change to represent the nature of Christ.
#3 Did CHrist exsist? Rather than arguing an age old question, I pose this in return. Prove to me that he didnt. Telling me Christ doesnt exsist, is like me telling you that the bond you share with your wife or children is null and void. When you truely understand the nature of such a relationship, you need no proof. I was on the other side of the fence. I can rememeber screaming to the top of my lungs" fuck you and fuck your god". But something changed. I never found any sense in Darwinism or the Big Bang theory but I found a sense of being inside this relationship. I can not greater explain the feelings I have of Christ than you explain the love you have in denying his exsistance.
Given the opportunity a rich man will steal, that is the sole reason why the word of God should by taught by a man who has no home. |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 03:36:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I dont know how many of you have wives or hubands, but if you really truely love them you would know that you would gladly give way to your life, for the sake of thiers
Yes, I probably would under some circumstances, but then I *know* they are real and exist. You say before this:
quote:
Lets be honest there is no proof as to the true exsistance of God or Christ
So you claim to have a loving relationship, and are prepared to die for, something that you don't even know exists?! That's just plain daft.
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"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 03:49:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Given the opportunity a rich man will steal, that is the sole reason why the word of God should by taught by a man who has no home.
I like it.  It's really great and absurd. It brings the picture to mind of Pat Robertson on a street corner holding a sign saying, "WILL PREACH FOR FOOD." 
May I make an editorial comment (say yes, 'cause I will, anyway)? You really should use paragraphs in your writings. When everything is all jammed together in a single lump, it makes it more difficult to read, and much of your work might be skimmed rather than actually read. Thus, the intent of your writings might be missed.
f
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 03:51:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Terryt88
I can't remember the name of the denomination, help me out Boron
It was the "Living Faith Fellowship" in Pullman, WA. Scary, scary folk. At some point, if I get off my @ss, I'll post my report on this site.
One of the funniest things about it was on the way out Terry said, "I don't fear god, I fear those people." |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 04:57:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by a65phalcon
Did CHrist exsist? Rather than arguing an age old question, I pose this in return. Prove to me that he didnt. ... I never found any sense in Darwinism or the Big Bang theory but I found a sense of being inside this relationship.
As the ad says: And this is your brain on drugs! |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 05:20:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
weither it is Moron, Catholic, Baptist,
(emphasis added)
Intentional?
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 07:54:42 [Permalink]
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Here we go again!
quote:
Originally posted by a65phalcon
Did CHrist exsist? Rather than arguing an age old question, I pose this in return. Prove to me that he didnt. ... I never found any sense in Darwinism or the Big Bang theory but I found a sense of being inside this relationship.
As stated at least a million times before, 'tis upon the claimant to prove the claim: Daddy God and sonny Jesus, Thor, Quetzacoatl, and whoever-ad nauseum exist/created all/will return-and-then-yer-heathen-ass-is-in-a-sling, and so forth. The skeptic listens.
As for Darwin's Theory of Evolution, support for it in terms of solid fact strengthens every day. A little time spent actually studying it might change your mind.
Big Bang: I don't know enough about it to comment. Others here, do.
As for a relationship with a metaphysical being, hey, sez I, "Whatever takes the knot out of your knickers!" Have at it. But don't expect others to share the feeling.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 07:55:06 [Permalink]
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> The preacher talked (for a long time) about the reason many people
> can't find god is because they have hardened their heart. One can't
> see god if they are not "ready" to believe. He then went into this
> long discussion about how to "open your heart to god." But through
> all this guys ramblings, all I could get from it was "you just gotta
> believe..."
In other words, a person must already believe in order to be given the means or the justification to believe. 
> Lets be honest there is no proof as to the true exsistance of God or
> Christ. However there is also no relevant dis-proof.
If that is the case, then there is no way we could honestly say that God and Christ exist.
> Did CHrist exsist? Rather than arguing an age old question, I pose
> this in return. Prove to me that he didnt.
Burden of proof fallacy. It is not my job to show that he didn't exist. It is your job to show that he did.
> I never found any sense in Darwinism or the Big Bang theory but I
> found a sense of being inside this relationship.
Did you even bother to study the Theory of Evolution or the Big Bang Theory? |
Antie. DIES GAUDII.
Facies Fabulosarum Feminarum
If you can name all six of the females in the picture above without looking up their names, and you can read the Latin phrase, pat yourself on the back. You're smart. |
| Edited by - Antie on 12/02/2002 07:59:59 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 09:47:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
#3 Did CHrist exsist? Rather than arguing an age old question, I pose this in return. Prove to me that he didnt. Telling me Christ doesnt exsist, is like me telling you that the bond you share with your wife or children is null and void. When you truely understand the nature of such a relationship, you need no proof. I was on the other side of the fence. I can rememeber screaming to the top of my lungs" fuck you and fuck your god". But something changed. I never found any sense in Darwinism or the Big Bang theory but I found a sense of being inside this relationship. I can not greater explain the feelings I have of Christ than you explain the love you have in denying his exsistance.
All of the facts point to Jesus being a homosexual although this is seldom advertised as if christians were afraid to face this rather obvious fact. Why don't you prove to me that he wasn't. I mean he had no girlfriends and no kids...
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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