|
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2002 : 01:30:26
|
|
A line from the movie "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" clarified everything for me as to why Jesus came. To save us yes but it was to save us from his Father. The character stated (and I am paraphrasing here) that after he put Adam and Eve in the garden and also put in the apple of knowledge he still expected them to live in blissful ignorance. He really screwed up. Of course pain and sorrow and pissing God off was a small price to pay for all the other knowledge we got. If he had wanted us to stay sinless, he should never had created the apple. So to correct it Jesus had to come to help clean up the mess God had made of creation. I rather like that idea. I don't believe it but it does make a strange sense.
|
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2002 : 07:34:24 [Permalink]
|
| Gnostics, Valentinus and the Demiurge. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
 |
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2002 : 06:46:18 [Permalink]
|
There is a thread over at Internet Infidels that contains some real gems.
Jesus' "Sacrifice"
Read the stuff by the poster named Koyaanisqatsi, he's great. To quote from one of his posts in this thread (which is why I brought it up):
quote:
what you'd have is a being making an entirely irrelevant sacrifical gesture (a symbolic ritual) to itself in order to appease itself to save mankind from itself, which is, of course, at best patently absurd and at worst evidence of collosal mental instability.
|
| Edited by - Tokyodreamer on 12/09/2002 06:47:11 |
|
|
|
Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2002 : 22:00:43 [Permalink]
|
| Another quote from a movie I liked is from "Dominic And Eugene" where Tom Hulce's character is a brain damaged man who points out a crucifix to a priest and states if he were God he would never let that happen to his boy. |
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
|
|
|
NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 13:43:47 [Permalink]
|
This is way off topic, but this thread's subject, reminded me of some thoughts, that used to waste alot of time with. Dunno if other religions put forward the ideal of "knowledge = original sin," or not. "Recorded history" reaches back, (what?) two thousand, maybe as much as five thousand years? Yet mankind has been around for what, say a hundred thousand years..?
(Sci-Fi, Stranger-than-strange music swells up in the background)
Is that long enough for mankind's climb out of the dust, to have had more than one cycle of uh, the collection of knowledge and the developement of technologies? Might there have been a time in our distant past, when this body of knowledge was misused to cause a huge diaster of some sort, leading to a concenus, that 'knowledge' is to be distrusted and eventually leads to no good? Could make a neat Twilight Zone, huh? *L* |
 |
|
|
|
Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 13:52:27 [Permalink]
|
I know this is off topic,
I've always wanted to ask a Xian what happens to all the people who came before Christianity, are they all doomed to christian hell?
Come on, you can't blame them for being early for the party?
|
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 14:07:50 [Permalink]
|
KW the answer is in Dante's Inferno
The nice Pagans are is the very most outter circle of Hell, where it's just kind of boring and gloomy and dark--but not actually painful. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 14:19:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slater
KW the answer is in Dante's Inferno
The nice Pagans are is the very most outter circle of Hell, where it's just kind of boring and gloomy and dark--but not actually painful.
Actually, that's only a Roman Catholic view (I'm not sure how closely that medieval poem reflects current doctrine). Both Unitarian Universalists and Fundamentalist Evangelicals would reject this view, although in exactly opposite directions. UU's believe that everyone, eventually, is saved, while Evangelicals usually take an exclusivist view, that only a small percentage of humanity, those with the right set of beliefs, will be saved. As in any other area, Christian doctrine varies enormously. I recommend reading the various essays on salvation at the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance at http://www.religioustolerance.org/salvatio.htm. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 16:21:19 [Permalink]
|
| Yes, as Avenel points out KW, Xians change Hell and Heaven and even God to suit themselves at any given moment. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 16:53:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Yes, as Avenel points out KW, Xians change Hell and Heaven and even God to suit themselves at any given moment.
That is nothing like what I said. My point was that in this issue, as in all others, there is no monolithic "Christian" doctrine. Nothing I said implies any individual or denomination changing oppinions so whimsically.
If you are going to paraphrase me, Slater, at least do so honestly. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
|
|
|
Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 17:07:58 [Permalink]
|
| What I think he is trying to say, is that Christianity is so diverse, you get all different views and doctrines in one religion, rather then one set of rules, right? |
|
|
|
Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 17:18:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
What I think he is trying to say, is that Christianity is so diverse, you get all different views and doctrines in one religion, rather then one set of rules, right?
Yes, but I think that is true of all large (in terms of number of adherents) religions. For example, Tibetan Buddhism differs substantially from Zen Buddhism. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
|
|
|
Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 20:32:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Another quote from a movie I liked is from "Dominic And Eugene" where Tom Hulce's character is a brain damaged man who points out a crucifix to a priest and states if he were God he would never let that happen to his boy.
Well, as I recall, Moses, who lead his people out of Egypt and through the wilderness for 40 years was denied entrance to the promised land because he struck a rock in anger. And of course Job, whom God called his most faithful servant, lost his family and wealth and ended up sitting on sack cloth covered in runny sores just so God could show the Devil how loyal he was. It should really come as no surprize that he would let his own son be nailed to a cross. The biblical God is rather an egomaniac. I guess absolute power really does corrupt absolutely. |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 20:33:36 [Permalink]
|
Actually, that's only a Roman Catholic view (I'm not sure how closely that medieval poem reflects current doctrine)
Make up your mind Avenel. If that's the medieval Roman Catholic version and they have a new one. And if the Protestant heretics came up with their own Hells when they betrayed Catholicism then they are changing doctrine to suit themselves. Christians on these boards have been known to change their doctrins in mid sentence. Don't be so intolerant. It's not like they are giving out conflicting facts. These things are purely fictional. |
-------
I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
|
|
|
Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 09:19:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slater
[br
Make up your mind Avenel. If that's the medieval Roman Catholic version and they have a new one. And if the Protestant heretics came up with their own Hells when they betrayed Catholicism then they are changing doctrine to suit themselves. Christians on these boards have been known to change their doctrins in mid sentence. Don't be so intolerant. It's not like they are giving out conflicting facts. These things are purely fictional.
I am not the one being intolerant. I never said that interpretations never changed. What I objected to was your statement that quote:
... Xians change Hell and Heaven and even God to suit themselves at any given moment.
It's this wholely unsupportable characterization of every Christian changing doctrine at a whim that is intolerant and to which I object. All in would take is a qualifier, "some", in front of that statement to make it acceptable. Nor should this be limited to Christians. Every major religion has had doctrine evolve, and had groups split off over differing opinions of interpretation. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
|
|
|
Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 10:44:17 [Permalink]
|
| There are so many different Xian churches that you would be hard-pressed to make a doctrine for them all. The Universalist view of all being saved clashes with a lot of the doctrines in other faiths. But then again, just to play Devil's (or God's) advocate, punishments are never forever. And realistically, as has been argued to great effect in the past, you cannot reconcile hell with a merciful God. |
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
|
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
