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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 12/11/2002 : 14:51:44 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I don't see a god that runs it's own eternal torture chamber for those that don't pray to it in a humble light. I see something more like the low self-esteem poster child.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 15:12:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaneda Kuonji
God is humble (based on the bible's description), and does not need the attention of everyone.
In the "ten commandments" (as I recall) it says:
I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other god before me.
You shall not make any graven images, nor worship them.
I don't know, but I'd say that god was pretty jealous if he forbid people to have any other beliefs other than worshiping him.
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--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 15:37:28 [Permalink]
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| Okay, you guys win, I hadn't read the Bible in ages (Due largely to the fact that there really was no reason for me to waste my time on it), so you caught me napping. My fault entirely. Funny how so many violate their own doctrine, though. In fact, I have found many Fundamentalists to be hypocrites whom may as well not worship God at all. |
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 21:23:31 [Permalink]
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Whoa, I just finished reading this thread. a65 you have to be given credit for taking on the whole board....taking quite a beating though(I know how it feels)
It's good to see you are reaching to find what you believe is true in your own way. There are a few things I can't figure out. You say you believe in Christ and have a relationship with him. OK
You say you have Faith. That's good. So bring these two statements together and you are a Christian. Correct?
This is where it gets confusing. You state 'the fact is those stories or parables are meant for spirtual means rather than factual accounts.' You are referring to the flood with 40 days and 40 nights of rain. This isn't a parable, this is biblical fact. A parable is a story to illustrate an idea. The 'good samaritan' is a parable.
The bible states that "The word is God", not sure where but it's in there.(I'll find it if you want"). So you could now take some deductive reasoning:
God is perfect
The word is God
The word is perfect
This illustrates that if you are a Christian, you have to play Christian rules. You can't pick and choose statements in the bible that you don't like and discard.
You said "that even if Jesus was gay it wouldn't matter. It says in the bible that being gay is a sin. (In Romans somewhere, I'll find it if you want) If Jesus was gay, then he would have sinned. At this point Jesus would be just a guy (a gay guy) and you could throw everything to do with Christianity in the crapper. After that it wouldn't mean a thing.
You are not a Creationist? Lets go back to some logic:
The word is God
God is Jesus and the Holy spirit in the trinity
The word is Jesus
If you believe in Jesus and that he is perfect, you have to take the bible as perfect. (I think it says something about creationism near the beginning.) No exeptions.
Believe what ever you want, just believe it right. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 22:05:51 [Permalink]
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If the bible is the word of god, then if I change the bible, and reprint it, am I god?
The versions of the bible we have today are nothing like what probably was originally compiled from all those book things. How can someone say that it is the definitive word of god?
What if King James I was homophobic, and decided to have the anti-gay parts put in for good measure, or any of the "editors" before him? I think that even if it was the word of god, it would be so diluted by now that only a few words would be left.  |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 22:22:23 [Permalink]
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Plus there are also cases in the bible where, at some point during the translation from the Hebrew language, words like "stick" were somehow changed over time until they became words like "camel" or something to that effect. Translation of the bible over the centuries isn't neccessarily accurate.
Plus there is the whole thing where I believe god doesn't exist and didn't actually create the world or anything on it. That might have something to do with it too because that would mean that the supposed "perfect" word of god would have been created by an imperfect person. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2002 : 22:23:24 [Permalink]
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| KW, if a65 states that he is a Christian, he has a belief system to uphold. He has to belief that the bible was divinely inspired by God.(written by man but God directed the pen) At every translation that occured, if a65 is a true Christian, the final product is what God had intended. I'm speaking from what the Christian faith says so no objective thinking. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 02:45:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Fireballn: God is perfect
Deuteronomy 32:4, 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalms 18:30. These are the only places I found in the bible that claims God is Perfect (actually, they say his works are perfect, but that's close enough). quote:
The word is God
John 1:1. This is a NT reference, John is preaching to the Hellenists (Slater will, I trust, correct me if I am mistaken). John, if you notice, is radically different from the Synoptic Gospels. This book is almost Platonic (without the logic, however) and was most likely written to convert Greeks to Christianity. quote:
The word is perfect
I am afraid one cannot make deductive conclusions from biblical statements, since it is not internally consistent. I recommend you peruse the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. quote:
This illustrates that if you are a Christian, you have to play Christian rules. You can't pick and choose statements in the bible that you don't like and discard.
Sure you can, if you realize that the bible was written by men, and is therefore fallible. It becomes up to you now to create your own perversion of Jesus' teachings based on your selective interpretation of scripture. Or, you could pull a Mormon or Christian Scientist, and write your own supplement, eh?
[edited to add more "perfect" references] |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 12/17/2002 03:27:01 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 02:56:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Fireballn:At every translation that occured, if a65 is a true Christian, the final product is what God had intended. I'm speaking from what the Christian faith says so no objective thinking.
What makes this a necessary tenet of Christianity? Seems to me, to be a Christian, you must worship Christ. Traditionally, that involves believing he is the sun of god, yada yada, but I don't think there is any required belief other than "worship Christ." Each sect and denomination has its own set of canons; for example, to be a Fundamentalist Christian you must believe the Bible is the Holy Inspired Word of God.
Similarly, one does not have to be a liberal to be a humanist. There are many liberal humanists, but it is not a necessary condition. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 03:15:49 [Permalink]
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To find out exactly what a True Christian is, I reccommend that you explore this site:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 19:00:46 [Permalink]
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Boron-"I am afraid one cannot make deductive conclusions from biblical statements, since it is not internally consistent."
To a Christian, all the statements in the bible are true. If a Christian put forth a deductive argument, and the claim provides conclusive grounds for its conclusion, couldn't one deem it valid?
Christians obtain the authority of their statements because within the parameters of their belief system God controls and created all. He makes the rules, and rules logic. To people looking in from the outside, they might say it is a load of BS, full of contradictions. To the people that believe it from the inside, it is all valid regardless of actuality.
So to a Christian isn't it internally consistent? A Christian won't see the contradictions I guarantee that.
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If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 19:38:47 [Permalink]
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To the people that believe it from the inside, it is all valid regardless of actuality.
We on the outside cannot help but notice that. It doesn't seem quite sane.
We also can't help but notice that Christians are constantly trying to force their views on the rest of us. Things like trying to outlaw science and have their stories taught in public school instead. Do you think this is a defensible position?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 20:27:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
Boron-"I am afraid one cannot make deductive conclusions from biblical statements, since it is not internally consistent."
To a Christian, all the statements in the bible are true. If a Christian put forth a deductive argument, and the claim provides conclusive grounds for its conclusion, couldn't one deem it valid?
Christians obtain the authority of their statements because within the parameters of their belief system God controls and created all. He makes the rules, and rules logic. To people looking in from the outside, they might say it is a load of BS, full of contradictions. To the people that believe it from the inside, it is all valid regardless of actuality.
So to a Christian isn't it internally consistent? A Christian won't see the contradictions I guarantee that.
This is all well and good for you but since you don't get to define what Christianity is(until you're elected God)you will just have to deal with the fact that each and every Christian has their very own, personal definition. It's much like when you ask someone to define, love, hate, happiness or sadness. Not all Christians believe the Bible is 100% accurate. Other Christians say that since they believe that they are not real Christians nyah, nyah, nyah. What flavor is the real flavor of Christian and more importantly, what gives any one person the right to decide that?
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2002 : 20:59:59 [Permalink]
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Slater-"Things like trying to outlaw science and have their stories taught in public school instead. Do you think this is a defensible position?"
I believe science should be taught in public schools 100%. I believe religion should be taught at home. If every religion had their story to teach in public schools, people would be there for 50 years.
I believe people should have access to all schools of thought and make a decision based on that person's better judgement. After all, it is a search for meaning and truth, not to protect the status quotient. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2002 : 02:57:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
If the bible is the word of god, then if I change the bible, and reprint it, am I god?
The versions of the bible we have today are nothing like what probably was originally compiled from all those book things. How can someone say that it is the definitive word of god?
What if King James I was homophobic, and decided to have the anti-gay parts put in for good measure, or any of the "editors" before him? I think that even if it was the word of god, it would be so diluted by now that only a few words would be left.
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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