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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 12/24/2002 : 18:36:30
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Slate writer Jim Holt has written a little something regarding Atheism for the holidays that, in my opinion, is one of the worst of its kind I have seen in a long, long time.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2075653/
What really stands out is the way he does not hold himself or other believers to the same standards he holds atheists to in this article. He provides only a single sentence about those that believe in a god needing an argument:
"The evidentiary ledger has two sides: reasons for believing God exists, and reasons for believing God doesn't exist."
But then he goes back to some sort of second grade level bashing of atheists. My take on this article is that he didn't do his research, doesn't give a shit yet pretends to know an awful lot about it. But this is not surprising considering the source. Jim Holt was the author of an Arkansas anti-evolution bill that was the part of the inspiration for Kent Hovind is a Big Phony, one of our most popular features at SFN.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/25/2002 : 06:59:52 [Permalink]
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He's got a point, there. But, I'm sure if he combs his hair just right, nobody'll notice.
Same ol', same ol'. He assures us that there is a god, claiming that 90 to 95% of Americans believe it (Argument from Popularity, the dumbest Argument of them all), then demands that the atheist disprove it. What this turkey fails to realize is that only a few atheists really much care what he believes. The rest of us don't give one scrofulous rat's ass (unless the dolt gets on a missionary trip. Then he might get told something he'd rather not hear). What he further fails to realize is that as far as the atheist is concerned, the burden of proof is upon the theist, the one who's making the claim.
He has done exactly zero research beyond looking up a few, celebrity atheists. But, I suspect that most of his readers will applaud his wisdom.   
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 13:16:04 [Permalink]
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That article relies so heavily on equivocation and strawmen as to be almost nonsensical. No atheist in his right mind tries to disprove the deist god. That's because the deist god is defined to be fundamentally incomprehensible - inexplicable by logic, math, language or any means we use to communicate information about reality. As far as I can tell, deists are either Martin Gardner types - they believe in a deity because it makes them feel a certain way, or they simply hold to the last vestiges of the argument from incredulity. Either way, their worldviews are usually identical to naturalism save for the creation of the initial singularity, an unobserved, and probably unknowable, event.
I have no idea why he mentions the argument from evil, as that is almost exclusively a rebuttal to the Abrahamic religions. Deists certainly do not have a universal belief in a morally perfect god. Besides, the free-will defense is wrought with Mount Olympus-sized holes of its own.
This, I thought, was particularly strange:quote:
You can believe, as I do, that the universe is presided over by a being that is 100 percent malevolent but only 80 percent effective (which explains pretty much everything).
If this is not the most ad hoc theistic explanation I have ever seen, it is damn close. Eighty percent effective? What forces oppose a being that creates through acts of pure will? The best I can say is that it is original.
Big thumbs down. I expect better from Slate.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 13:24:55 [Permalink]
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Did anyone get offended by the part where he said some atheists, some of whom he mentioned by name, were not real atheists because they didn't have good argument to support their view. If he really thought about what he was saying he would realize that he eliminated 99% of Christians who are taught to believe on faith alone.
Holt is a complete idiot. Everything he said against Atheism was 10,000 times more damnig against Christians. Talk about not earning the honorific of "Christian." If this is the best challenge there is to aheism then Christians are a sad, sad lot.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 15:52:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did anyone get offended by the part where he said some atheists, some of whom he mentioned by name, were not real atheists because they didn't have good argument to support their view. If he really thought about what he was saying he would realize that he eliminated 99% of Christians who are taught to believe on faith alone.
I didn't get offended. I thought it was humorous to see this numb-nut hoisted upon his own petard. By the balls.
For those who might not be entirely hip, a 'petard' was a sort of hand-thrown bomb, like a hand grenade. It was also known to be less than reliable, sometimes damaging it's thrower. Fortunatly, it further was considerably less than a nuke. It was said that a good, healthy fart was as devastating.
I wonder if Mr. Holt can smell the methane that has raised him to such hights. 
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2002 : 16:38:17 [Permalink]
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and they think we don't have a good arguement, but their best is
"There is God because there IS "
or
"There is God because if there wasn't, we wouldn't exist"
That's my arguement |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2002 : 00:07:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did anyone get offended by the part where he said some atheists, some of whom he mentioned by name, were not real atheists because they didn't have good argument to support their view. If he really thought about what he was saying he would realize that he eliminated 99% of Christians who are taught to believe on faith alone.
I wonder if he realizes that what makes a person a "real" atheist is simply that he doesn't believe in god, not that he has a good argument for why god doesn't exist.
quote:
"There is God because there IS "
or
"There is God because if there wasn't, we wouldn't exist"
I like that, it's quite amusing. All of their arguments seem to be devoid of real logical thinking. I've noticed that most theists jump into conversations and start shouting claims, most of which can be easily disproved or shot down. And even after their claims have been destroyed the only answer they can usually come up with in reply is "nuh-uh, you're wrong and I'm right," or something to that effect. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 18:41:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
He has done exactly zero research beyond looking up a few, celebrity atheists. But, I suspect that most of his readers will applaud his wisdom.
f
I think you've hit upon the crux of the matter, f. These apologists couldn't care less what the skeptics think about their drivel. Their only goal is to give the "flock" some more excuses not to think for themselves. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 10:28:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Did anyone get offended by the part where he said some atheists, some of whom he mentioned by name, were not real atheists because they didn't have good argument to support their view.
I sure got offended. He wrote: Katha Pollitt may have declared herself an atheist on Crossfire, but she neglected to disclose her grounds for taking this position.
Did he ever stop a single second to consider that her reasons was personal?
My reasons for turning from a born-again pentecostal christian to an agnostic bordering on atheist is pretty f***ing personal, and so I have a good reason for being offended.
quote:
If he really thought about what he was saying he would realize that he eliminated 99% of Christians who are taught to believe on faith alone.
<snip>
@tomic
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 23:05:13 [Permalink]
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> And even after their claims have been destroyed the only answer
> they can usually come up with in reply is "nuh-uh, you're wrong and
> I'm right," or something to that effect.
That reminds me of how someone once told me that he didn't have any evidence to back up his particular claim, and he told me that his claim was indeed true, anyway. |
Antie. DIES GAUDII.
Facies Fabulosarum Feminarum
If you can name all six of the females in the picture above without looking up their names, and you can read the Latin phrase, pat yourself on the back. You're smart. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 16:47:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Antie
> And even after their claims have been destroyed the only answer
> they can usually come up with in reply is "nuh-uh, you're wrong and
> I'm right," or something to that effect.
That reminds me of how someone once told me that he didn't have any evidence to back up his particular claim, and he told me that his claim was indeed true, anyway.
Yes, this is known as "belief by whim," and seems to be very popular. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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