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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2003 : 17:11:56
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Jeremiah 18:8 says:
"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."
And yet, when Josiah did just that, God did not "turn from the evil" that he thought to do unto them!
2 Kings 23:3, 5, 8-15, 20-22, 25-27:
3 "And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book. And all the people stood to the covenant."
5 "And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven."
8 "And he brought all of the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua and the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
9 "Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the Lord in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
10 "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
11 "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the Lord, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.
12 "And the altars that were on the top of the upper chamber of Ahaz, which the kings of Judah had made, and the altars which Manasseh had made in the two courts of the house of the Lord, did the king beat down, and brake them down from thence, and cast the dust of them into the brook Kidron.
13 "And the high places that were before Jerusalem, which were on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Ziddonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile.
14 "And he brake in pieces the images, and cut down the groves, and filled their places with the bones of men.
15 "Moreover the altar that was at Bethel, and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, both that altar and the high place he brake down, and burned the high place, and stamped it small to powder, and burned the grove."
20 "And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them, and returned to Jerusalem.
21 "And the king commamded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the Lord your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant.
22 "Surely there was not holden such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah."
25 "And like unto him there was no king before him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.
26 "Notwithstanding the Lord turned not from the fierceness of his great wrath, wherewith his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations that Manasseh had provoked him withal.
27 "And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.
So God did not keep the promise he made!
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/08/2003 17:49:16
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2003 : 18:10:59 [Permalink]
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| Walt, I've been reading your posts and seen a clear pattern of contempt for God, religion....ect. Just wondering what set you off... |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 18:30:45 [Permalink]
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Fireballin, we Atheists don't feel "contempt" for god. God is a fictional character. He's the hero of a series of novels.
What is being show is that Xian claims of the attributes and behavior of this character don't match the books.
I was just wondering what it was that reduced you to this lowly state where you can't tell the difference between fact and fiction? |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 18:43:33 [Permalink]
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| Not all atheists are as 'charged' as Walt. I was just wondering if there was a particular event that set him on his path. I didn't say he was wrong, just curious that's all. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 18:55:34 [Permalink]
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Frankly, I think reading and understanding the bible -IS- a particular event that can charge one down the atheist path. The bible fails from the get-go.
Just my 2 cents.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 19:42:12 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by walt fristoe
Jeremiah 18:8 says:
"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."
And yet, when Josiah did just that, God did not "turn from the evil" that he thought to do unto them!
If you read the promise clearly, fristoe, you will notice it says, "if that nation....turn from their evil..."
Josiah was truly a God fearing king who led a reform in Israel, but the people as a nation did not turn from their evil ways... and thus the judgment that was pronounced continued in force, only it did not fall upon Josiah. It was not enough for a minority to turn toward God to avert His judgment. In contrast, the Book of Jonah, shows an example where the people of Ninevah, king and citizens, turned to God and repented of their evil ways and God averted the judgment from them.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2003 : 15:27:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
Walt, I've been reading your posts and seen a clear pattern of contempt for God, religion....ect. Just wondering what set you off...
No specific event, Fireballn. I just feel like I was lied to as a child about the existence of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and Jesus.
Also, it scares me to think of the influence enjoyed by religions of all kinds.
And I agree with Joseph Lewis, who wrote:
"It is our duty to expose the Bible. We must continue to tell the truth about the Bible. We must continue to enlighten the people. And if after the true facts are known, there are some who still insist the Bible is good enough for them, they are welcome to it."
Also Mikhail Bakunin:
"God, or rather the fiction of God, is thus the sanction and the intellectual cause of all the slavery on earth, and the liberty of men will not be complete, unless it will have completely annihilated the inauspicious fiction of a heavenly master." |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/13/2003 16:49:21 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 00:03:50 [Permalink]
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> He's the hero of a series of novels.
Some may argue that he's also the villain. |
Antie. DIES GAUDII.
Facies Fabulosarum Feminarum
If you can name all six of the females in the picture above without looking up their names, and you can read the Latin phrase, pat yourself on the back. You're smart. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 18:19:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Josiah was truly a God fearing king
I've heard this "fear God" stuff all my life, and I still don't understand it. Just what does it mean to "fear God", in light of:
2 Timothy 1:7, which says, "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
And 1 John 4:18, which says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
Do these verses not contradict such verses as:
Lev 25:17, Dt 6:2, 13, 24, 10:12, 20, 31:12, 13, Josh 4:24, 1Sam 12:14, 2 Kings 17:39,
and quite a few others that all say we should fear God? |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 16:04:19 [Permalink]
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In nearly every case, it means exactly what it says—fear, be afraid, terror, dreadful fear, etc. In some cases, it may mean reverence, as to revere or respect someone with great power. The same is the case in the New Testament. Several Greek words are used, which translate much the same.
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If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 22:52:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Josiah was truly a God fearing king
I've heard this "fear God" stuff all my life, and I still don't understand it. Just what does it mean to "fear God", in light of:
2 Timothy 1:7, which says, "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
And 1 John 4:18, which says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
Do these verses not contradict such verses as:
Lev 25:17, Dt 6:2, 13, 24, 10:12, 20, 31:12, 13, Josh 4:24, 1Sam 12:14, 2 Kings 17:39,
and quite a few others that all say we should fear God?
The New Testament verses you quoted are talking about the kind of fear that brings torment. This is clearly not a type of fear that God gives people or wants them to have. The fear of God is partially defined in Proverbs 8:13 where it say "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." Another place in Psalms 19:9 says, "the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever". "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" Psalm 111:10
There are many other positive statements concerning "the fear of the Lord". It is obviously more of a respect toward God and a belief in His ways and a hatred of evil ways. There is a second "fear of God, however, that the rebellious sinners have (see next post)So, in conclusion, I would say there is no contradiction, just understanding that there is more than one type of fear. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/19/2003 23:14:52 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 23:10:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
In nearly every case, it means exactly what it says—fear, be afraid, terror, dreadful fear, etc. In some cases, it may mean reverence, as to revere or respect someone with great power. The same is the case in the New Testament. Several Greek words are used, which translate much the same.
It would seem as I read some of the verses refering to "the fear of the Lord", that the people who are rebellious toward God are terrified of His judgment and power, while those that are obedient and in humble awe and reverence of God with "the fear of the Lord" have many blessings upon them. Thus, it would seem, that different words are being used in each case, and sure enough, when looked up in a concordance, it is true; different words for fear are being used in the same phrase, thus, many English versions are lacking in clearly rendering a true translation, but the concordance helps us see that the same word in our language was really two or more words in the Hebrew language with different meanings. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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