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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2002 : 09:27:40
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 10:51:00 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure that I "get" what is happening there.
It sounds like, once the problem schools are identified taxpayer money is spent on private schools instead of the public schools that need the help. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 11:11:12 [Permalink]
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What makes these schools so bad? Is it the teachers, who are underpaid and don't care, or the students who are just lazy or ignorant?
I don't see the point of this either, rather than spread the money out to everyone, just give it to a few lucky ones, and hope that all goes well in the end. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 12:14:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
It sounds like, once the problem schools are identified taxpayer money is spent on private schools instead of the public schools that need the help.
Yeah, wasn't that the major complaint about vouchers in the first place?
I wonder if the money allotted to each student is enough to cover the cost of private school tuition, books and transportation. If not, that pretty much leaves the poor and the working class kids in the schools that need the most help. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 14:16:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
This is inspired by a comment on the Boy Scouts thread. I live in a voucher state and I have several friends and acquaintances involved with the public school system, so I have had time to give this quite a bit of thought.
The voucher system in Florida works roughly thusly:
1. Public school kids in grades 3-10 take a standardized test.
2. The test scores are, I believe, judged on a relative scale.
3. Schools are given "grades" based on their percentile scores per grade.
4. Those schools graded "F" are eligible for vouchers.
5. A voucher lottery is held, with all students in failing grades automatically eligible for allotted voucher money, something like $5500 max per kid.
Now, there were something like 2.4 million PreK-12 kids in Florida during 2001-2002. So, roughly 1.3-1.4 million were prima facie voucher eligible. There were 68 schools in 01-02 that had at least one failing grade. I can't find the stat I'm looking for right now so I can't tell you what percentage that is of total schools but it's probably not very high. I'll give you a case study instead.
Two years ago, here in Escambia County, there was a middle school that received two failing grades, amounting to some 600+ kids. Of those 600+ eligible for vouchers, I believe seven, a little over 1%, received voucher money through the lottery.
I really have to wonder if a state-funded private school option for 1% of kids in failing schools is: 1)worth all this freaking trouble; 2)actually the intended conservative solution for public school woes. Based on the rough numbers, I have to believe actual school choice is at least a secondary concern. The party line about ensuring parents have a choice is rhetoric at best. Obviously, moving a significant number of kids into private schools is out of the question because it would quickly become a multi-million dollar exercise, money the State of Florida surely doesn't have. And I somehow don't think private schools are eager to accept IOUs or engage in deficit spending.
So I guess my question is, what is the point of all this? Am I the only one who sees the utter futility in this exercise? Is it just a lack of foresight that prevents most people from seeing a voucher system as the crippled mess it is?
PhD, Do you have any other information on their proposed voucher program? I was concerned with the Ohio program until I heard the extent of the program and protections in place. I still think that direct payments by government to religious institutions is a bit hinkey.
The reported maximum you give is a lot more than the Ohio program. ($1,500 max payout and the school reciving the voucher was forbidden to charge more than a percentage over that like $2,250/year.) In situations where the public school has clearly failed, the schools need a real incentive to improve. Vouchers could help in that regard. But if the private school accepts vouchers, there are some strictures that the US government must place upon them to ensure quality of education and consistency of program of study. This was done in the Ohio program. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 16:48:52 [Permalink]
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Well, here's the link to the FDE public schools page: http://www.firn.edu/doe/dps/home0005.htm
There's quite a bit of stuff there but I couldn't find everything I was looking for. The $5500 is from memory, but I'm reasonably sure about that.
Here's the Opportunity Scholarships site: https://www.opportunityschools.org/Info/OSP/default.asp
And still I can find no additional statistics.
Anyway Val, I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, because the money is given at the discretion of the parents. The money is not guaranteed to go to a religious school; Montessori Academy accepts vouchers here in Escambia County and, to my knowledge, they are not affiliated with any particular church.
I don't see competition as necessarily a cure-all but it probably can't hurt. The problem is the Florida education budget was slashed in the late 80s when the lottery was instituted; lottery money was supposed to augment the existing budget, but naturally it just replaced part of what was lost. And, fore-thinking intellectuals that they are, Florida voters in the last election passed referendums mandating both smaller class sizes (20? 25? something like that) and hiring 10,000 additional teachers by 2004 or 2005. We're not just facing a crunch - this is a full-blown crisis. Your mileage may vary in Ohio, but there's just nothing about this situation that doesn't suck.
Of course, the whole voucher system has been upheld in state court since August of this year, pending, I suppose, constitutionality hearings. Wait and see.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Legallee Insane
Skeptic Friend
Canada
126 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 19:22:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tim:
I wonder if the money allotted to each student is enough to cover the cost of private school tuition, books and transportation. If not, that pretty much leaves the poor and the working class kids in the schools that need the most help.
I have observed that private schools aren't really all that advantageous anyhow. I know people who go to a local private school and in my opinion they are paying money out of their own pockets for the same education that I am getting for free.
Another thing that I have wondered is how people really expect that sending stupid kids to private funded schools will make them any smarter. Chances are they will remain just as stupid as if they stayed in the public school system, only they'll get more attention while their failing. |
--"Only the fool says in his heart: There is no god -- The wise says it to the world"
--"I darn you to HECK!" - Catbert
--"Don't worry, we're not laughing at you, we're laughing near you." |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 13:45:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Another thing that I have wondered is how people really expect that sending stupid kids to private funded schools will make them any smarter. Chances are they will remain just as stupid as if they stayed in the public school system, only they'll get more attention while their failing.
From what I have seen, the people who get low marks in elementary school aren't the kids who can't do it because they are not able to, it is the kids who don't really care about school. These people could be taught by the best teachers in the world and still not learn anything. Rather then rewarding the ignorant, why don't they nurture the brilliant? (unless they plan to have a state of dumb voters for the future) |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 15:47:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Legallee Insane
I have observed that private schools aren't really all that advantageous anyhow. I know people who go to a local private school and in my opinion they are paying money out of their own pockets for the same education that I am getting for free.
Another thing that I have wondered is how people really expect that sending stupid kids to private funded schools will make them any smarter. Chances are they will remain just as stupid as if they stayed in the public school system, only they'll get more attention while their failing.
This is an interesting point. Starting teacher pay for at least the Catholic high school here is about $18,000; compare to $22,000 for public schools. In addition said private school does not require their teachers to have Bachelors degrees, just a certification available from the local community college.
I know several families that send their children to this Catholic high school. Some believe that the smaller class sizes are advantageous (probably to some degree) and some even believe the curriculum is more challenging (eh, no). The latter I tend to dismiss out of hand because of the widespread availability of dual-enrollment in the public high schools. Anyway, I can say, at least for this small sample, a significant number of the parents appreciate the, let's say "isolated" racial atmosphere.
Now, I doubt all these people are KKK members, but they do, like the rest of us, observe that some urban public schools have many problems with student behavior and control. Now, most of the private school kids in question would have gone to the better reputed, suburban public schools; it seems like they may be generalizing racial behavior from school reputation |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 09:28:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
Well, here's the link to the FDE public schools page: http://www.firn.edu/doe/dps/home0005.htm
There's quite a bit of stuff there but I couldn't find everything I was looking for. The $5500 is from memory, but I'm reasonably sure about that.
Here's the Opportunity Scholarships site: https://www.opportunityschools.org/Info/OSP/default.asp
And still I can find no additional statistics.
Anyway Val, I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, because the money is given at the discretion of the parents. The money is not guaranteed to go to a religious school; Montessori Academy accepts vouchers here in Escambia County and, to my knowledge, they are not affiliated with any particular church.
I don't see competition as necessarily a cure-all but it probably can't hurt. The problem is the Florida education budget was slashed in the late 80s when the lottery was instituted; lottery money was supposed to augment the existing budget, but naturally it just replaced part of what was lost. And, fore-thinking intellectuals that they are, Florida voters in the last election passed referendums mandating both smaller class sizes (20? 25? something like that) and hiring 10,000 additional teachers by 2004 or 2005. We're not just facing a crunch - this is a full-blown crisis. Your mileage may vary in Ohio, but there's just nothing about this situation that doesn't suck.
Of course, the whole voucher system has been upheld in state court since August of this year, pending, I suppose, constitutionality hearings. Wait and see.
OK. I found it.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH1002/Ch1002.HTM
This is worse than the Ohio program. There is no set dollar amount for attendance. The amount is the base for the district's per student dollar outlay (including the dollars for accomodations for disabilities). If a public school in Miami-Dade spends $6,700 per student but is still a "two F" school, that $6,700 goes to the private institution or the amount of tuition and fees which ever is lesser. The school may not charge more than the maximum amount the state will give them for these voucher students.
The nice parts of this law (Florida law 1002.38 section 4) pertains to eligibility of the school. It must be financially stable by either being in operation for one year or have sufficient insurance to insure operation. It must also comply with the antidiscrimination provisions of 42 U.S.C. s. 2000d and meet local and state health and safety laws. It may not exclude students based on religion. It must be subject to the instruction, curriculum, and attendance criteria adopted by an appropriate nonpublic school accrediting body and be academically accountable to the parent for meeting the educational needs of the student. It must agree not to compel any student attending the private school on an opportunity scholarship to profess a specific ideological belief, to pray, or to worship. The teachers of the private school are required to show they have a baccalaureate or higher degree, or have at least 3 years of teaching experience in public or private schools, or have special skills, knowledge, or expertise that qualifies them to provide instruction in subjects taught.
Likewise in section 5, the parent has the obligation to fulfill the parental involvement requirement of the school and must make sure their student takes the statewide assessment tests. If they don't, they loose the money.
In your area, the cost per student may be $5,500 per year. The other thing this statute offers is an opportunity to attend another public school within district which is recieving a assessment of C or higher.
There is nothing to stop the private school from ratcheting up tuition and fees for these voucher students to take advantage of a higher payout or discriminate toward students who live in a school system which is fiscally irresonsible. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 01/02/2003 09:31:11 |
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