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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
 Posted - 12/29/2002 : 06:59:37
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By this time, I imagine that most have caught this AP story of the 19 year old Eagle Scout kicked out because he's an atheist. So, apparently the scouts don't like gays or atheists. Makes my short stint as a Cub Scout fill me with shame. Funny though, I don't seem to remember any prayer or other references that put the Scouts firmly in the corner of the religious right. Is this a new direction, or have I missed something through all these years of not having the vaguest thought about this organization?
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone actually had a lead on just what the qualifications are for being involved with the Boy Scouts of America.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 08:44:23 [Permalink]
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I seem to recall reading somewhere (I've never been a Scout) that the code says that a Scout must believe in a 'higher power,' not necessarly Christian. Sort'a sounds like the Masons.
Me, I think the kid got a raw deal from the get-go. But, the Scouts are a private outfit, like the Augusta Golf Club. I'll bet he loses.
f
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"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
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Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 08:54:13 [Permalink]
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I have been in Scouts Canada for 11 years, and have achieved the equivilant of Eagle Scout, called Chief Scout's Award. I doubt here they could care less whether I'm an athiest or not, because they say they "accept and encourage all faiths"
that last part is BS
From the time you start in Beavers(ages 5-7), you have to say prayers before and after every meeting. Heres an excerpt thats been molded into my brainfrom all that praying:
quote:
Thank you God, for this day
For my friends and for my play
thank you for all the good things to eat
for eyes and ears, and hands and feet.
That doesn't sound very "multi-faith" to me.
For getting the Chief Scout's Award, one of the requirements was that I had to be attending a place of faith regularly, and had to discuss something or other with my priest. Well, the people in my group know my family's religion, and they are all fine with it, so we just crossed that requirement out. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 12:16:25 [Permalink]
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Is this a new direction, or have I missed something through all these years of not having the vaguest thought about this organization?
You've missed something. Both my son (now 26) and daughter (30) were not allowed to join the Scouts on the grounds that they are Atheists |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 16:46:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Both my son (now 26) and daughter (30) were not allowed to join the Scouts on the grounds that they are Atheists
(un)holy crap!
and I thought things were all going to proverbial hell up here. Here in Canada, we allow males and females into the group, unlike the BSA's sexist policies.
The stupid policy in Canada now is that all Leaders with anything on their criminal record were kicked out, so that the insurance policies would be lower for the main office. One of the Leaders in my group was involved in scouting since his son (one of my best friends) and I were 5. But because when he was nineteen a friend of his stole a cassette from a store, and was caught with it in the group of friends, he was charged with being an accessory to theft. Now, he cannot be a leader, and that almost made the whole group resign from Scouts Canada.
The moral of the story, scouting is going down the crapper.  |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2002 : 23:38:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Is this a new direction, or have I missed something through all these years of not having the vaguest thought about this organization?
You've missed something. Both my son (now 26) and daughter (30) were not allowed to join the Scouts on the grounds that they are Atheists
Hum! Your daughter is slightly younger than mine, I just wanted to put a time frame on this. When I went to scout 'meetings' I don't recall anything but doing fun things like making pupets out of milk cartons (my mother was a Den mother, perhaps that had something to do with it). But then I grew up in a 99% Jewish area of So. Calif. so maybe it's not the same as in the Southern US or other parts of the world. And back then perhaps religion wasn't as big a deal to argue about either. I don't remember anyone making such fuss about what someone else was or believed in. At Xmas time in school we sang all kinds of songs, xian and jewish and Jingle Bells. It was fun and after the holidays we went on about our business, no one was intimidated, harrased or brainwashed. Get over it people!
As Filthy says, the BS are a 'private outfit' and I agree they have a right to accept or kick out anyone they want. (their loss) |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 05:01:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
You've missed something. Both my son (now 26) and daughter (30) were not allowed to join the Scouts on the grounds that they are Atheists
Thanks, Slater. That's what I was looking for.
And, you're right, Snake--"Their loss."
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 09:53:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
By this time, I imagine that most have caught this AP story of the 19 year old Eagle Scout kicked out because he's an atheist. So, apparently the scouts don't like gays or atheists. Makes my short stint as a Cub Scout fill me with shame. Funny though, I don't seem to remember any prayer or other references that put the Scouts firmly in the corner of the religious right. Is this a new direction, or have I missed something through all these years of not having the vaguest thought about this organization?
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone actually had a lead on just what the qualifications are for being involved with the Boy Scouts of America.
I used to be proud of being a Boy Scout. (I was in from Cub Scouting on.) Not anymore.
The Boy Scouts started out as an organization which welcomed all faiths (and no faith). It was a way to teach valuable skills and encourage good citizenship.
As I said. Started out.
Around the 60's, the twits in the front office had the bright idea that one needed to believe in a higher power. Atheists who admitted to being so were refused admission and expelled from scouting. The resulting lawsuits said that the BSA was a private organization and could determine membership as they saw fit.
In the 80's, due to two sensational cases of pediophiles entering as Scoutmasters, homosexuals were excluded. (Based on the fundie logic that homosexual = pediophile)
In the 90's, the American Boy Scouts started advancing itself as a "Christian" organization. (Formalizing the practice of many local councils.)
In response to this, the Wiccans have set up SpiralScouts. It is open to all faiths (and lack thereof) and sexual preference. It still has within it a religious overtone, but not to a specific religion.
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archive/200210/CUL20021031b.html
http://www.aquatabch.org/spiralscouts/
It ain't perfect, but it's a start. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 10:23:57 [Permalink]
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the BS are a 'private outfit' and I agree they have a right to accept or kick out anyone they want. (their loss)
A "private outfit' that recruits in public schools. That gets a significant percentage of it's funding from the federal government. That traditionally has had the President of the United States as their Chairman.
"…Their loss?!" How can you say such a thing?
This diner won't serve blacks…their loss
This corporation won't promote women…their loss
This New York Athletic Club won't admit Jews…their loss
Atheists are not religion-niggers.
Kilted, if the members of your troop 'crossed that requirement out' then they are breaking the requirements of Canadian Scouting. Don't you get it? The 'requirements' say that you aren't good enough for the Scouts because you aren't a Theist. You and they could be expelled at anytime because of your religious beliefs. You are a Scout under false pretences and not because you are accepted.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 15:13:21 [Permalink]
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Slater,
What they actually, 'officially' did, was have me talk to my religious leader (myself), in my place of worship (my computer room), to bend the rules.
I have loved the outdoors and have been camping (sleeping in a tent away from all civilization) before I could walk. The group I'm in couldn't care less about religion. We made our own bylaws (technically legal under Scouts Canada) and have recruited people for the love of camping. To clear it up, we get NO funding from Scouts Canada, and are only affiliated like a franchise, except we are a non profit org. Us older youth can't do much, but my dad and a few others have now all but eliminated religion from the program, and concentrated on outdoors, the good part of scouting.
I can see how big a thing like religion can affect the south though, the place where you have preachers and other weirdos like that. People up here usually keep quiet about religion, letting other practice whatever the proverbial hell they want. Although some Xians still preach during the Canada Day celebrations, it is usually pretty weak.
Sorry about the ranting... |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 16:32:34 [Permalink]
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Yeah, the camping sounds great.
But they didn't bend the rules to let you in...they broke them.
The GSA and BSA troops that my kids weren't allowed in were in Manhattan which is quite possibly the most sophisticated place on the planet--and still they pulled this crap.
If the rules must be bent to let you participate then that is religious prejudice, plain and simple. If they had rules that prevented Jews or blacks from joining it would be an international scandal. But if it's Atheists nobody cares. Even many Atheists are willing to close their eyes to this outrage. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 19:25:49 [Permalink]
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Amen, Slater, as a former scout myself. At the time, I was still caught in the theistic haze, but I didn't realize it. In retrospect, the organization (in the 80's at least) was and apparantly still is a church-sanctioned club (we were supported by the local Presbyterians, and the people who sat on the "board" who approved our merit badges and rank advancements were deacons of said church). We recited protestant prayers at the drop of hat, and "chapel" services were a regular part of our larger gatherings.
Yet I still recognize, almost daily, the important skills that scouting taught me. If I had come to the realization that I was an atheist earlier in life, or had been born into an atheistic family, I would have missed out on this. My "libertarian" side wants to agree with Snake--yes, it's a private institution and they have their right to exclude whom they choose. However, if they in fact do receive federal funding and advocacy, then they are not all that private, and the fact that they exclude atheists should be vigorously contested. |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 19:27:47 [Permalink]
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I just checked Scouts Canada bylaws, and there is no mention of a member's religion. The only rules are that the member cannot have a criminal record or be a pedifile (samething, the former was added a few years ago).
Although, there are certain groups that are sponsored by churches that may make athiests 'unwelcome'.
They didn't bend the rules, but the people at head office seem to think that if you don't worship a god, then you are not a good citizen, and that is what pisses me off.
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BACK TO THE TOPIC
What do the courts think of this? Doesn't it say in the American something or other that people are free to worship how they please without fear of persecution? If I were him (and in Canada), I would take this to the supreme court, which could make scouts take me. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 20:21:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
the BS are a 'private outfit' and I agree they have a right to accept or kick out anyone they want. (their loss)
A "private outfit' that recruits in public schools. That gets a significant percentage of it's funding from the federal government. That traditionally has had the President of the United States as their Chairman.
"…Their loss?!" How can you say such a thing?
This diner won't serve blacks…their loss
This corporation won't promote women…their loss
This New York Athletic Club won't admit Jews…their loss
Atheists are not religion-niggers.
Yes, I thought of that, being in public schools, etc., but aren't there other groups who probably shouldn't be there too. That's not an excuse for them to be there I know but how can we stop everything?
And YES, I stand by that....Their loss.
A diner that doesn't want business? Does the word Boycott mean anything to you. Or in other words, money talks. Who doesn't want to have a business that is sucsessful?
A corporation that doesn't want to hire the best qualified? The compitition will be happy to get a good employee, I would think. As a side note, why it might be a woman, I don't know.
Jews and athletics, LOL, don't make me laugh. (well, I should take that back, my brother(a jew) ran track in high school). But, why join a club that doesn't want you? Why does everyone think they have to be everywhere they aren't wanted? Life is not fair! Let them start their own club. |
| Edited by - Snake on 12/30/2002 20:28:16 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 22:18:00 [Permalink]
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Let them start their own club.
And ride in the back of the bus, and drink from their own water fountains. Just keep them away from decent folk.
The New York Athletic Club and the Jews was a landmark court case. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 22:58:29 [Permalink]
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Slater has a good point. What's to stop a group from forming with the sole intent of not allowing atheists, the school voucher program will really suck if atheists are not admitted to what will become the good schools. There is a point where government needs to step in and make sure the little guy has access. Yes, no one likes being told what they have to do. Don't forget that some people don't like being told what they can't do based on their beliefs.
What kind of America or world do you want to live in anyway?
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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