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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 01/09/2003 : 05:49:35 [Permalink]
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Google "centrifuge, near death experiences".
late for work |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 12:21:55 [Permalink]
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centrifuge, near death experiences
Oh yeah. Rode in a jet once that went into a series of power dives and loops (Navy fighter pilots have really strange senses of humor). You get the whole thing, white light, tunnel, and feeling of a 'presence.' Followed quickly by the feeling of your breakfast reemerging.
Your 'spirit' is nothing more than a primitive misinterpretation of your respiratory system. You find exactly the same misinterpretation happening in China with the "chi" and in Polynesia with the "ha."
The 'soul' on the other hand is a misinterpretation of the mind. The 'mind' being the functioning of, the completely physical organ, the brain. It's easy enough to show that the 'mind' is nothing but electro/chemical reactions. Simply have a martini or two. By adding even such a small amount of alcohol to the chemicals in your blood stream you can note drastic changes in the workings of your mind. The mind, being the functioning of the brain, is completely dependent on the brain being alive. The mind cannot survive the death of the brain.
If the 'soul' is not the 'mind' and does survive physical death it doesn't really matter. The mind encompasses your consciousness. Were the soul separate from the mind it would not be conscious. It living on after your death would have no more meaning to you than your transplanted kidney living on, or your finger nails continuing to grow in your coffin.
If the metaphysical soul had it's own consciousness independent of the physical body then nothing done to the physical body could affect your metaphysically based consciousness. And we know, for a fact, that this simply isn't true. Therefore the soul is either not conscious or it is nothing more than the mind. In either case it's continued existence after a persons death is meaningless.
The soul is usually pictured as being able to perceive what is going on around it (OoB experiences) without benefit of the organs of perception (eyes, ears…). But were this the case then there could be no blind or deaf person as their conscious soul would have no use for these senses.
Having no organs of perception a conscious human 'soul' with no escape into death available to it, would in short order go mad. So you had better hope that you don't have a soul.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 16:01:34 [Permalink]
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Just because the ER doctors and nurses say he was "dead" doesn't quite define the modern meaning of death.
Death is when there are no chances of revival. We all know that the brain can't survive for much more than four minutes without oxygen before suffering damage. Modern death seems to be when the brain is entirely deprived of oxygen, the tissue is dead, and all organs have stopped functioning. Thats death. You can only die once. These people are suffering NDE's are suffering from that lack of oxygen affecting certain parts of the brain, most likely memory. As slater just said, lack of oxygen can also occur when in high-G situations. Unless the soul is being ripped from your body during these things, the soul probably doesn't exist. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 16:22:55 [Permalink]
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Your soul stays put but according to the early church your spirit gets ripped loose when you sneeze. There are small demons who live in the ether in the upper athmosphere (where we get the word 'ethereal') that might grab it and steal it. That's why people who sneeze sometimes sicken and die...demons have stolen their spirits. To protect them you have to quickly say "God bless you" to ward off the tiny demons.
Works great on the little buggers...but it doesn't do crap for germs. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 16:37:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
centrifuge, near death experiences
Oh yeah. Rode in a jet once that went into a series of power dives and loops (Navy fighter pilots have really strange senses of humor). You get the whole thing, white light, tunnel, and feeling of a 'presence.' Followed quickly by the feeling of your breakfast reemerging.
Righto. Other than the reemerging part, it sounds like a great way to start the day.
Just wanted to add the military slant on these similar NDE type episodes with pilots in centrifuge training, it's a big yawn. That is, these moments of hallucinations, if you will, have been routinely documented by the military and understood for many years.
Like the side-effects you mentioned Slater, most pilots going thru this centrifuge training do experience some type of NDE effects; although the military doesn't use the NDE terminology. The G-forces get cranking, and just before pilot goes unconscious, the dream state can kick in. The feeling of a presence might be reported to be a vision of a loved one, a deceased family member, etc. Or common enough for those pilots of the religious persuasion to "see" the object of -their- faith, i.e. jesus, god, yahwee, buddah, zeus, vishnu, shiva, mickey or goofy, whatever. The subject sees what's in -their own- psyche. Or maybe nothing at all.
The ever darkening or tunnel vision with bright light(s) in the center originates with the visual cortex region of the brain. Oxygen depravation, as I remember. Hell of a lot of military study on the topic; my guess not terribly accessible. The internet is plagued with pseudo-science sites on the subject.
The NDE type effects has no geographic boundaries. It happens to pilots training with centrifuges in other countries around the world or when flying and exceeding one's G-force limits. Just a side story of military jet training. Over coming this black out, of course, is of major interest; to keep pilots alert and engaged with effectivly flying their planes.
On a similar note, I have a cousin Bill that survived a major heart attack many years ago. Said when in the ambulance he "saw and heard" our deceased grandfather tell him "It's not your turn". My cousin doesn't doubt for a second that was his "spirit" from the other side telling him that. Nice thought for him, and well for me too; the big difference being is I view it as his interpretation of a thought or dream effect. Certainly it helped that grandfather didn't die many years before Bill knew him. If he had, it's reasonable to assume he would have never thought of him after his heart attack. Consider too, Bill's thought process wasn't really up to par at that moment.
My guess moments after one survives a major heart attack, one would be quite shocky, panicky, extremely stressed, semi or unconsious, delirious, oxygen deprived. Natural to "see and latch onto" a positive image at that time. One of the human body's own survival mechanism? Reasurance (granddad) can be a might big placebo.
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"I think we're all aware by now that the brain can create images that are present in our subconscious and many of us believe that we're going to die and go to a heavenly place. You never hear of anyone saying they came back from a near-death experience full of fire and brimstone." - Dr. Dean Edell
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
| Edited by - Randy on 01/09/2003 18:05:44 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 17:06:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilted_Warrior
Just because the ER doctors and nurses say he was "dead" doesn't quite define the modern meaning of death.
No doubt the definition of death and resuscitation is relative to the available technology at the time.
Like icy water near death resuscitations, a modern discovery is that the body can "shut down" external apendages, constrict blood flow to the extremeties to preserve the body's core temp. Before, the victim was hauled up and chunked into the cart.
Nowadays it's getting to be not too uncommon to read about some hapless victim under icy water for up to an hour and be slowly resuscitated with modern techniques without ill effect. Not always though. (must be that gret big space daddy that's pulling strings? )
Think this discovery lead to break-thru surgeries with Russia leading the way. The entire body is wrapped in ice to lower it's temp down to the 70s for a length of time. Certain major surgeries can be performed with success.
Fun fact for the day.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 18:49:21 [Permalink]
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| I have seen very little of actual desire for truth or serious critical thinking within this forum. I think many of you are fooling yourselves. I'm out. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 19:00:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I have seen very little of actual desire for truth or serious critical thinking within this forum. I think many of you are fooling yourselves. I'm out.
Oh?, and what color is the sky in your world Doormar? |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 11:08:31 [Permalink]
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| Dual brain? Is that like the triune brain theory? |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 13:45:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Dual brain? Is that like the triune brain theory?
Nah. We have what's called the "primitive" or "reptilian" brain, which consists of basically everything but the cortex and is responsible for emotions and autonomic functions, and then the cortex itself, or "mammalian" brain, which is the seat of consciousness. What physically distinguishes the human brain is the massive surface area of the cortex, acheived by folding the surface of the cortex - which is why the brain looks wrinkled. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 14:04:36 [Permalink]
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| Why the names "repilian" and "mammalian" for brain regions? Is a reptile's brain smooth, or is that just an implied hierarchy? |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 14:13:01 [Permalink]
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Speaking of brains, this site is quite brainy.....
http://brainmuseum.org/index.html
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 15:00:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Why the names "repilian" and "mammalian" for brain regions? Is a reptile's brain smooth, or is that just an implied hierarchy?
The animal brain saw a huge increase in complexity with the emergence of reptiles. While the cortex did exist in very rudimentary form in later reptiles, there is a significant development - of what is sometimes called the neocortex - not seen until the emergence of mammals. The names are the result of working backwards - we see significant brain differences that coincide with the demarcation between mammals and reptiles, so everything that appears in mammals is "mammalian" and everything else is "reptilian." |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 16:31:17 [Permalink]
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"I think we're all aware by now that the brain can create images that are present in our subconscious and many of us believe that we're going to die and go to a heavenly place. You never hear of anyone saying they came back from a near-death experience full of fire and brimstone." - Dr. Dean Edell
As a matter of fact I have read of several accounts. A couple were suicides. The victims were revived and they reported being in a place like "hell".
Another story I heard was of a fellow (a logger)who fell off a train filled with logs going over a tressle above the river. He hit the bridge abuttment with his head and fell in the water. He was under the water a long time also, though the fall probably killed him. He came back to lifve a long time later...couple hours and not with the help of medics. He reported being in hell standing on the shore of a lake of fire with many other people. He saw Christ appear. He wished so hard that Jesus would look at him. He knew it would be his only hope. Then Christ looked at him, he was instantly back in his body and regaining consciousness. He was very sick for a long time afterwards, but alive. Christian relatives had been praying for him. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 17:59:59 [Permalink]
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Are you sure that it wasn't you who was hit in the head? You've changed Christianity into a Cargo Cult.
If this guy died, went to hell for a couple of hours and then came back to life then he did the same things Jesus did, so start praying to him |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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