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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 01/10/2003 : 19:15:51 [Permalink]
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Speaking from personal experience, when you pass out from lack of oxygen to the brain and the oxygen supply is then restored, there's a very strange interval while your brain is "rebooting" during which your interpretation of sensory data is apt to be way off.
I've always been prone to postural hypotension- if I stand up from a sitting or lying posture too quickly my circulatory sytem doesn't compensate fast enough and I get dizzy or even faint.
A few years ago, this happened to me while I was a a friend's house. I stood up, felt dizzy, and instead of heading for the floor in a controllable manner, I stupidly tried to tough it out. I passed out instead.
When I woke up, for about 15 seconds I thought that it was 1973 and that I was in New Hope PA, where I had gone to boarding school at that time.
My pixilated brain had the basic observations right- that I was in a suburban house, on the floor and unable to move, speak or remember what had happened- but put them together all wrong.
I've had a few such episodes in my life, and they were all characterized by that interval of total misinterpretation of reality.
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 20:37:19 [Permalink]
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When I woke up, for about 15 seconds I thought that it was 1973 and that I was in New Hope PA, where I had gone to boarding school at that time.
My pixilated brain had the basic observations right- that I was in a suburban house, on the floor and unable to move, speak or remember what had happened- but put them together all wrong.
I've had a few such episodes in my life, and they were all characterized by that interval of total misinterpretation of reality.
Passing out and dying on the operating table don't seem to have a close correlation except that your misinterpretation of reality confirms the mind's lack of ability to comprehend reality in times of extreme deprivation...therefore, how do you or anyone explain this scenario: a man whose heart has stopped, unconscious, no oxygen to the brain, is revived in a few minutes and later explains in detail to a doctor exactly what he saw, being out of his body (his perception), hearing the exact conversation in the room, explaining in detail the exact actions of each person in the room without flaw. Remember, unconscious, even dead or within minutes of final death, but recalling all events perfectly....as ktesibios described, the brain would be totally disoriented and unable to comprehend reality if functioning at all. Therefore, could this not be a clinical example of the soul or spirit of a man existing and being able to comprehend reality in detail without brain function, or body function?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 20:47:45 [Permalink]
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Two thoughts, Doomar.
1) The temporal aspect of NDEs is exceedingly hard to pin down. There's no hard-and-fast rules that specify when a persons senses and cognition "shut-down" or in what order they cease functioning.
2) If the "soul" is capable of all the real-world sensing and comprehension that is supposedly the purview of the brain and senses, what is the purpose of the brain and senses?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 20:48:17 [Permalink]
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The biggest problem I have with the existance of a soul is that it's completely undetectable. Can you bring me one in a petri dish? Can you point one out on an MRI scan?
It's unscientific...like having a new type of particle that can't be detected at all...how, then can you test your theory? |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 10:30:45 [Permalink]
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2) If the "soul" is capable of all the real-world sensing and comprehension that is supposedly the purview of the brain and senses, what is the purpose of the brain and senses?
ph, consider that if the soul and spirit is eternal, it must be capable of understanding outside of the body to face the judgment and/or blessing of the Almighty. Also, consider that it is very likely that a person is not capable of function without spirit and soul and that all parts, including mind and body function together, not independently as you may currently think. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 10:47:41 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Infamous
The biggest problem I have with the existance of a soul is that it's completely undetectable. Can you bring me one in a petri dish? Can you point one out on an MRI scan?
I have read of an experiment where a doctor weighed people who were dying and consistantly detectly a loss of weight upon death. Not being able to see something doesn't rule out its existance. You can't see air or the wind, but you benefit from both. Consider that you must have more than just a mind and body. Just as you need more than a computer and its housing to use a computer. How you use it, why you use it, and if you use it at all are part of computer use. The decisions are not made by the computer, the computer helps in determining what decisions we make. Many times we make decisions without its use at all. So it is, I am suggesting, with our mind and body. Another part of us determines how to use the mind and body, whether to exercise or not, to read or not, to love or not, to hate or not, and so on. Also, when such decision are made with the body and mind involved, do they alone carry them out? When you love or hate, you do not necessarily act upon either, but feel something within, not just in your mind or body. That something else is (called by some) your soul...your "spiritual heart". These concepts are not new, they've been around since the beginning of time.
The supernatural occurances that so many have encountered in life are so common that we have t.v. shows about them every day of the week.
To believe there is no spirit or soul existing is naturalism. To believe there is spirit is supernaturalism. Both types of people are found in the realm of science. Who do you think is more limited in understanding?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/22/2003 10:50:47 |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 11:33:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I have read of an experiment where a doctor weighed people who were dying and consistantly detectly a loss of weight upon death.
What you've read is probably a Christian urban legend. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul7.htm. If you can point to an article in a reputable peer-reviewed journal that discusses this experiment, please do so. I'm betting you can't. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 14:13:16 [Permalink]
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Doorman science has nothing to do with the supernatural. Science deals with the real world and the supernatural exists only in fiction.
The reason a human body loses weight when it dies is that all bowel control is lost. That's not a spirit and a soul that are weighed it's shit and piss. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 14:20:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
2) If the "soul" is capable of all the real-world sensing and comprehension that is supposedly the purview of the brain and senses, what is the purpose of the brain and senses?
ph, consider that if the soul and spirit is eternal, it must be capable of understanding outside of the body to face the judgment and/or blessing of the Almighty. Also, consider that it is very likely that a person is not capable of function without spirit and soul and that all parts, including mind and body function together, not independently as you may currently think.
I don't have a fundamental problem with this reasoning - the brain and the soul both provide separate, but essential parts of the human whole. However, what we hear are stories of peoples' spirits seeing, hearing and smelling things whilst removed from their bodies. Now, we know the brain has physical structures that are specifically adapted to process visual, auditory and olfactory stimuli. We also know the general forms these stimuli take - photons, sound waves, molecules. Even this rudimentary knowledge of neuro-sensory activity makes a seeing, hearing, smelling "spirit" superfluous, and unintelligible.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 20:24:13 [Permalink]
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What you've read is probably a Christian urban legend. See [url]
I read about this over 30 years ago. I cannot recall the source at this time, it was not a legend, however. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 20:30:42 [Permalink]
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I don't have a fundamental problem with this reasoning - the brain and the soul both provide separate, but essential parts of the human whole. However, what we hear are stories of peoples' spirits seeing, hearing and smelling things whilst removed from their bodies. Now, we know the brain has physical structures that are specifically adapted to process visual, auditory and olfactory stimuli. We also know the general forms these stimuli take - photons, sound waves, molecules. Even this rudimentary knowledge of neuro-sensory activity makes a seeing, hearing, smelling "spirit" superfluous, and unintelligible.
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On the contrary, if you consider your life force, as being your "spirit", without which your body cannot function, then these very processes you mentioned occur only because of the spirit within you giving you physical life. Your assumtion is that the body/brain function without a spirit. One can, as easily assume, they cannot function without a spirit. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 20:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar: I read about this over 30 years ago. I cannot recall the source at this time, it was not a legend, however.
Is this supposed to be counted as evidence? Surely even you have higher standards than this.
Maybe not.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 22:00:59 [Permalink]
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| Christian urban legend is just a polite way of saying...yet another in a never ending series of Christian lies |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 11:43:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
On the contrary, if you consider your life force, as being your "spirit", without which your body cannot function, then these very processes you mentioned occur only because of the spirit within you giving you physical life. Your assumtion is that the body/brain function without a spirit. One can, as easily assume, they cannot function without a spirit.
You're not thinking very hard. If the spirit can already do all these things, of what use are the sensory structures of the brain? Why is it necessary that we have eyes that are subject to cataracts, visual cortices that are subject to concussion, neural pathways that are subject to damage by tumors? Why not just use the built-in ability of the non-physical spirit to "see" instead of conjoining it with all these potentially problematic physical parts? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 15:07:52 [Permalink]
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| If you pursue the question seriously, you might conclude the corporeal body exists to 'teach' this "non-physical spirit" of the existence of the physical world, and 'how' to percieve it. Huh? Have we arrived at a consensus for a distinction between 'spirit' and 'soul?' |
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