|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 02/03/2003 : 15:02:24 [Permalink]
|
Angels, and other supernatural beings, are exceedingly poorly defined mental constructs. Higher dimensions are purely mathematical entities, formulated specifically to allow strings and branes (again, purely mathematical entities) more directional freedom to move.
The matrices that are generated by higher-dimension mathematics are called Calabi-Yau spaces. Calabi-Yau spaces have mathematical properties that currently allow for only specific motions by strings and branes, and things like flop-transitions, which are rearrangements of space-time itself that preserve the integrity of the Calabi-Yau space. There exist no other calculations whereby poorly defined mental constructs might exist or move within Calabi-Yau spaces.
So, if you claim it is possible that angels and other supernatural beings reside or move within Calabi-Yau spaces, then angels and other supernatural beings are by definition strings or branes, as mandated by the current level of mathematical knowledge about higher dimensions.
To sum up, if you wish to assert the possibility of supernatural beings existing within higher dimensions, then by definition supernatural beings = strings/branes. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
 |
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 10:58:53 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
". . . To sum up, if you wish to assert the possibility of supernatural beings existing within higher dimensions, then by definition supernatural beings = strings/branes."
You disemble, PhDreamer, for is it not also true that you, I, the server upon which this board exists, and all other 'things' are strings/branes? Why should I be bothered that angels might be strings/branes----or some aspect of strings/branes?
We, it is true, exist (at least in body  ) in the "4-dimensions" known as Space-time. Why can't there be "supernatural beings" (that is: "Super Space-time beings") existing in other dimensions?
(And why do you call those other dimensions "higher dimensions"?? Perhaps our 3-d Space is the "higher" dimension and the 6 curled up dimensions are the "lower" dimensions. Certainly they are the smaller dimensions!)
I am merely suggesting this structure as a possibility; I was not formulating a scientific hypothesis.  Nonetheless, I am skeptical of your motives for so stridently decrying the possibility that the "curled up dimensions" might be inhabited. Is it because you so urgently want "supernatural beings" to not exist?? 
I regret to say that I stand by my earlier comments.
By the way, you wrote in your earlier responsequote:
"You, yourself, just explained how these dimensions-above-three are tiny, curled-up pieces of space-time."
I think that you are wrong here: As I understand things, the dimensions from SuperStringTheory are orthogonal to our 3-dimensions (--the Space part of Space-time--) and, thus, are not "pieces of space-time".
You write:quote:
"The matrices that are generated by higher-dimension mathematics are called Calabi-Yau spaces."
When you, PhDreamer, equate some matrices with the actual [Calabi-Yau] spaces, I think that you may be mixing up the name of a thing with the thing itself. (Thanks to a very tedious course in Math Logic from Quine, I am always vigilent for myself generating this anomaly.) If you can be any more detailed about the math underlying/describing the Calabi-Yau, I would be appreciative---even a [Web] reference would be helpful (--I've done the Google searches: perhaps something more distilled.)
(Edited to fix some ForumCode anomalies.)
|
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 02/08/2003 11:42:46 |
|
|
|
Phantom
New Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 07:48:16 [Permalink]
|
"I think we're all aware by now that the brain can create images that are present in our subconscious and many of us believe that we're going to die and go to a heavenly place. You never hear of anyone saying they came back from a near-death experience full of fire and brimstone." - Dr. Dean Edell
Firstly I would point out that the above statement is completely untrue. Hellish NDE's do occur, the best discussion that I have read on the topic can be found in Christopher Bache - "Dark Nnight Early Dawn", chapter 4.
According to Dr Peter Fenwick, "...a satisfactory explanation of conciousness must include three vital components: a detailed role for brain mechanisms, an explanation for the action of mind outside the brain, and an explanation of free will, meaning and purpose. It should give an explanation of wide mental states, including mystical experiences and near-death experiences...as well as some solution to the question raised of the survival of aspects of conciousness after death."
He continues, "The study of quantum mechanical effects suggests that the universe is highly interconnected and that particles interact with each other at a distance. Thus the idea that mind could also be interactive outside of the skull is theoretically possible. The quantum mechanical theories of Chris Clarke and Mike Lockwood, and the quantum gravitational theories of Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff (who actually featured in a BBC documentary on the topic of 'life after death' just over a week ago) are all possibilities."
However, Dr. Fenwick believes that the most likely contender to link consciousness with brain function, as it has a wider explanatory power and leads to several testable predictions, is a theory by Amit Goswami - (Goswami, Amit. 1993. The Self-Aware Universe. New York: Simon & Schuster).
According to Dr. Fenwick, "He argues that conciousness is a basic stuff of the universe and exists like energy. When a choice is involved, an observation made, the wave function is collapsed in conciousness and matter arises, the standard wave/particle duality theory. His contribution is that there is only one observer, and this is a universal, undivided consciousness. He argues that brains have evolved a special mechanism for 'trapping' conciousness, so that when conciousness interacts with brain processes the probability wave collapses, on the one hand producing the external object, and on the other, subjective experience of that object...This theory does not displace current neuroscience but leaves it as a valuable basis on which conciousness acts through the brain."
I myself have taken great interest in Ronald Pearson, I point you towards the following -
www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/pearson/theoretical.htm
www.survivalafterdeath.org/theory.htm
www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/pearson/updating.htm
www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/pearson/interview.htm
www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/rdp/rdp_summary.html
www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/scientificproof/scientificproof1.html
With regards to evidence...are you familiar with the two independent prospective studies carried out in Britain and also in Holland published in the medical journal Resuscitation? In these studies carried out in hospital patients who had survived a cardiac arrest it was seen that NDEs occur in around 6-12%. The British study did not find any evidence to support the role of a lack of oxygen, an increase in carbon dioxide or the use of drugs in causing the experiences. Both studies commented on the inadequacies of current brain based theories to account for the experiences as they appeared to be occurring at a time when the brain was not functioning.
It has led to evidence which points to the survival of consciousness once a patient has been described as 'clinically dead'.
During the study period, 63 cardiac arrest patients survived and were interviewed within a week. Of those, 56 had no recollection of their peri |
"You laugh at me because I am different, but I laugh at you because you are all the same." |
| Edited by - Phantom on 02/13/2003 08:20:01 |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 08:10:41 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom:
"I think we're all aware by now that the brain can create images that are present in our subconscious and many of us believe that we're going to die and go to a heavenly place. You never hear of anyone saying they came back from a near-death experience full of fire and brimstone." - Dr. Dean Edell
Firstly I would point out that the above statement is completely untrue. Hellish NDE's do occur, the best discussion that I have read on the topic can be found in Christopher Bache - "Dark Nnight Early Dawn", chapter 4.
(And much, much more.)
Some of us, Phantom, believe that "Hell" is right here on Earth. That is, we believe that you die and are then re-born.
Under certain (very unusual) conditions, you 'progress' to a higher level of existence (--sometimes called "Heaven").
Under most conditions of your just-ended lifetime, you are re-born once again right here on Earth. The re-birth once again back on Earth might be a 'hellish' or 'heavenly' kind of existance---or something in between;---as Solomon the Wise [and The Birds] once wrote (paraphrased): "Sometimes this and sometimes that"--as in: "Sometimes hellish; sometimes heavenly". 
|
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 09:08:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
You disemble, PhDreamer, for is it not also true that you, I, the server upon which this board exists, and all other 'things' are strings/branes? Why should I be bothered that angels might be strings/branes----or some aspect of strings/branes?
Because strings and branes are mathematical entities that represent the most fundamental building blocks of matter and force. The equations don't currently include provisions for Planck-length beings with tiny little wings and halos. You are, of course, free to make it up as you go - I'm just reminding you that's what you're doing.
quote:
We, it is true, exist (at least in body ) in the "4-dimensions" known as Space-time. Why can't there be "supernatural beings" (that is: "Super Space-time beings") existing in other dimensions?
Once again, I'm not interested in universal negatives. I'm just here to remind you that you're engaged in complete metaphysical guesswork.
quote:
(And why do you call those other dimensions "higher dimensions"?? Perhaps our 3-d Space is the "higher" dimension and the 6 curled up dimensions are the "lower" dimensions. Certainly they are the smaller dimensions!)
When I say "higher," in this context I mean, "numbers greater than three."
quote:
I am merely suggesting this structure as a possibility; I was not formulating a scientific hypothesis. Nonetheless, I am skeptical of your motives for so stridently decrying the possibility that the "curled up dimensions" might be inhabited. Is it because you so urgently want "supernatural beings" to not exist??
No, it's because I am willing to take what science can tell me about theoretical/mathematical higher dimensions and limit my current knowledge only to that, rather than engage in metaphysical guesswork whereby I attempt to insert into said theoretical constructs beings from rather obvious ancient goatherder myths that I don't believe exist in the first place.
quote:
I regret to say that I stand by my earlier comments.
I regret that you say it as well.
quote:
By the way, you wrote in your earlier responsequote:
"You, yourself, just explained how these dimensions-above-three are tiny, curled-up pieces of space-time."
I think that you are wrong here: As I understand things, the dimensions from SuperStringTheory are orthogonal to our 3-dimensions (--the Space part of Space-time--) and, thus, are not "pieces of space-time".
Then what are they? Little blobs of Silly Putty?
quote:
You write:quote:
"The matrices that are generated by higher-dimension mathematics are called Calabi-Yau spaces."
When you, PhDreamer, equate some matrices with the actual [Calabi-Yau] spaces, I think that you may be mixing up the name of a thing with the thing itself. (Thanks to a very tedious course in Math Logic from Quine, I am always vigilent for myself generating this anomaly.) If you can be any more detailed about the math underlying/describing the Calabi-Yau, I would be appreciative---even a [Web] reference would be helpful (--I've done the Google searches: perhaps something more distilled.)
Where did I claim I was a mathematician or a theoretical physicist? Would you prefer I said I was reasonably certain no one has done calculations to show how angels would exist in higher dimensions? Anyway, this site is a string theory layman's paradise.
|
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 20:57:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Phantom
"I think we're all aware by now that the brain can create images that are present in our subconscious and many of us believe that we're going to die and go to a heavenly place. You never hear of anyone saying they came back from a near-death experience full of fire and brimstone." - Dr. Dean Edell
Firstly I would point out that the above statement is completely untrue.
Not at all. He's not saying that no one has ever claimed to have a near death experience in which they went to hell. He's simply pointing out that popular culture only reports on supposed "heavenly" experiences, which is totally true. No need for straw men here...
quote:
According to Dr Peter Fenwick, "...a satisfactory explanation of conciousness must include three vital components: a detailed role for brain mechanisms,
Ok so far...
quote:
an explanation for the action of mind outside the brain,
Er, what? What "action of mind outside the brain"? There is no mind outside the brain, and anyone claiming so needs to first provide proof before demanding an explanation.
quote:
and an explanation of free will, meaning and purpose.
First show that free will, meaning, and purpose exist. Then try to explain it. This has not been done, nor can I conceive of any way it could be. Until then, Dr. Fenwick is jumping way ahead of himself.
quote:
It should give an explanation of wide mental states, including mystical experiences and near-death experiences...as well as some solution to the question raised of the survival of aspects of conciousness after death."
This has already been done, and nothing "paranormal" is involved.
quote:
{bunch of other stuff}
Yet another "quantum mechanics gives us an excuse to claim that paranormal events are possible!" theory. Joy.
Look, this stuff would be so easily demonstrable, that no one would even have to be here posting about it. It just doesn't happen. Accept it and move on already... |
|
|
|
Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 02:37:39 [Permalink]
|
Yep, reminds me of that joke: "Everybody who believes in telekinesis please raise my hand".
Carl Sagan had some interesting theories on near-death experiences in his award-winning book "Dragons of Eden". As Larry Niven once wrote, supernatural forces and magic most likely do not exist, since if they did, somebody would have used them to take over the world by now..or something |
Find your own damned answers! |
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2003 : 21:33:45 [Permalink]
|
| I'd like to thank all of you for participating in this discussion. This is a subject that affects everyone, whether they realize it or not. Your belief or understanding of the the makeup of man directly relates to a number of extremely important topics. A few are discussed regularly in this forum: Evolution/Creation, Religion, Medicine, Social Issues, and so on. Please keep an open mind and try not to be too quick to dismiss what you may not understand yet. We barely broached this subject and its significance affects the direction nations and peoples move in education, law, religion, science, and culture. You can see the affects in world geography studies of different races and cultures. The main questions remain for you to answer for yourself: Do I have a spirit? And if so, what significance does that have on my life? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 03/04/2003 21:35:28 |
|
|
|
PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 08:14:03 [Permalink]
|
Doomar, you are still practicing cart-before-horse-ism. First, answer the questions, "What is a spirit?" and "What does a spirit do?"
|
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 08:28:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
Doomar, you are still practicing cart-before-horse-ism. First, answer the questions, "What is a spirit?" and "What does a spirit do?"
Is it to be believed that I am really reading this tripe? I've read it over and over, 3 times now, but the words just sit there, looking unchanged.
"What is a body?" and "What does a body do?" My brain sends out electronic signals and my arm rises. My liver sends out chemical signals and some hormones are produced. My immune system sends our a signal and some defences are rushed to where needed. That is what a body is; and that is the kind of things a body does.
The body exists in the 3-dimensions of Space-time (--the "lower" 3-dimensions, IMO ) and does various kinds of physical things. The spirit, on the other hand, is concerned with spirituality and 'orders' into effect various kinds of spiritual things.
To suggest that there is no such thing as a spirit is nonsense. Look around you, PhDreamer !
(Edited to remove an erroneous article.)
|
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 03/07/2003 08:33:40 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 09:29:58 [Permalink]
|
Thanks guys for a most interesting discussion.
In 1976, I was badly roughed up by a horse I was working on (I was a farrier at the time). It badly aggravated an old spinal injury and gave me a world-class concussion. It was over an hour before I arrived at the hospital and during that time, I was told, I faded in and out of conscioness. I don't recall much of it, but I remember clearly talking to my mother, who was quite lively at the time and living some 500 or so miles away in IL.
What is my conclusion? Trauma-induced hallucinations, of course.
I've always thought that NDEs are pretty much the same thing. I've yet to see anything to change my mind for, alas, all of the sprirts I've encountered thus far have been at the biker bars or the liquor store.
I have yet to see any evidence other than ancedotal (which is no evidence at all) pointing toward the existance of a 'soul'.
Edited to add: It is interesting, in a ghastly sort of way, to note that a dead person always seems smaller than when he was livng. I have seen it in lost shipmates. Could this be where the soul myth came from?
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 03/07/2003 09:35:18 |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 09:46:42 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
<snip>
I have yet to see any evidence other than ancedotal (which is no evidence at all) pointing toward the existance of a 'soul'.
<snip>
There's the blind guy on a city street corner with no one else around. His cup is full of loot.
Do you mug him, taking his money, with no way of ever getting caught?
Why not? You can't get hurt; you can't get caught; it's the 'smart' thing to do since you'll end up with the loot.
That you won't, is not for physical reasons; it's not for intellectual reasons.
So why not? Yet most of us would'nt even think of doing it.
|
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 09:51:38 [Permalink]
|
The body exists in the 3-dimensions of Space-time (--the "lower" 3-dimensions, IMO ) and does various kinds of physical things. The spirit, on the other hand, is concerned with spirituality and 'orders' into effect various kinds of spiritual things.
To suggest that there is no such thing as a spirit is nonsense. Look around you, PhDreamer !
It saddens me to think that now in the 21st Century there are still so many people who believe such primitive mumbo-jumbo. And even try to justify it by distorting the physical sciences.
If you look at the Hebrew word, and the Greek word, and the Latin word (in fact if you look at languages from China to South America) from two thousand years ago for SPIRIT you'll find that it is the same word that means BREATH.
If you look at the Hebrew, the Greek and the Latin word for SOUL from the same time you'll find the word for MIND.
There is nothing supernatural about your breath; it is merely the workings of your respiratory system. There is nothing supernatural about your mind; it is merely the workings of your brain. All completely physical.
To say that there are spirits in some magical other dimensions (as if dimensions were some sort of fairyland) is nonsense. Look around you, there is no such thing as the supernatural, the subnatural or the slightly to the left of natural. There is only nature.
GET REAL.
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 10:06:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
There's the blind guy on a city street corner with no one else around. His cup is full of loot.
Do you mug him, taking his money, with no way of ever getting caught?
Why not? You can't get hurt; you can't get caught; it's the 'smart' thing to do since you'll end up with the loot.
That you won't, is not for physical reasons; it's not for intellectual reasons.
So why not? Yet most of us would'nt even think of doing it.
Ah, but now we're talking about simple, human decency. It has nothing to do with any sort of supernatural anything. We are social animals, most of us anyway (I'm not particulary sociable). In some other social species, elephants, for example, the rest of the herd will rally to support an injured member. We we can certainly do no less, and robbing a blind man is far too much of a low-class grift for all but a few of us.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 10:10:43 [Permalink]
|
You make a (slight) distortion, Slater. I am suggesting that we are more than a 3-dimensional lump, allowed action by time.
I'm suggesting that we are (at least) 10-dimensional creatures: 3-dimensions of lumpish stuff (our body); 3-dimensions of intellectual stuff (our "mind"); and 3-dimensions of 'spiritual' stuff (our "spirit" or "soul").
As to the origin of the word "spirit" (--to which word I have NO attachment whatsoever--), I don't care. To be truthful, I think that we have advanced considerably since the ancient times, whether Greek or Chinese or whatever. I don't think that that advancement is because of "the long arm of the UNers" or the Geneva Conventions.
I think that we are more civilized because we have a better interface with our "spiritual side". Maybe some day we will become as civilized as Koko or as one of my dogs or even my Cavie. There are many people who would place the civility of of a Manatee or a whale or a Mountain Gorrilla well above the civility of a human.
(Edited in brown to replace the last few words which were somehow unaccountably lost.) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 11/13/2003 09:53:03 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
