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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2003 : 16:27:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
If you pursue the question seriously, you might conclude the corporeal body exists to 'teach' this "non-physical spirit" of the existence of the physical world, and 'how' to percieve it. Huh? Have we arrived at a consensus for a distinction between 'spirit' and 'soul?'
Interesting. However, the brain uses receptors that gather physical information. We "see" because photons "bounce off" matter and strike our retinae, and the strike patterns are interpreted by evolutionarily-honed neuron systems. Unless the non-physical spirit has some way of collecting physical photons and interpreting them, it doesn't seem that the spirit "sees" in this manner. Because of this, it makes no sense to speak of a physical system "teaching" a non-physical system when the non-physical system's way of operating is fundamentally and unchangeably different.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 18:36:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Doomar: I read about this over 30 years ago. I cannot recall the source at this time, it was not a legend, however.
Is this supposed to be counted as evidence? Surely even you have higher standards than this.
Maybe not....
Neither is it evidence to the contrary to simply deny anothers claim.
I did not make this up. If I find the source, I'll tell you where.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 18:52:26 [Permalink]
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You are right, of course. If the 'spirit' or 'soul,' exists, and if it is, what is "me," then there would seem to have to be an 'interface' to the physical, connecting the two (?) together in some way, since it is usually claimed body and spirit/soul equates to one person. Right? None has been found, therefore...
An earlier post by Slater, describing a "dis-embodied spirit" going mad, reminded me of the book, "And Johnny Got his Gun," in some way. But where Johnny had his contact with the physical world severed, he knew it existed, it's smells, sounds, the many colored lights, the vibrations of a living world, if only by memory. How would a non-physical entity know, that it existed?
PhD descibes accurately how the eye functions, but me don't see no bouncing protons, me sees the world. Can say with certainty that particles exist, that there is no way for me to actually perceive naturally. Or in my natural state, they are undetectable, "non-physical." It is my faith in the scientific method, that gives me the sense of certainty of their existence. So armed, that "non-physical system" of sub-atomic particles, does teach in a sense, and the knowledge is retained in my "natural" state of being, unaided by whatever devices required for their detection.
Geez, am sorry, dunno where am going with this, but put too much time in it, not to inflict it on yas. (btw double negitive intended)
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 18:56:21 [Permalink]
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PH said to Doomar:
You're not thinking very hard. If the spirit can already do all these things, of what use are the sensory structures of the brain? Why is it necessary that we have eyes that are subject to cataracts, visual cortices that are subject to concussion, neural pathways that are subject to damage by tumors? Why not just use the built-in ability of the non-physical spirit to "see" instead of conjoining it with all these potentially problematic physical parts?
If there is a spirit, there is also a realm where the spirit exists, invisible, it would seem, to the physical eye. It is said that God is a Spirit and man cannot see Him, as are the angels and devils spirits. The spirit can exist without the body, but the body cannot exist without the spirit. The spirit functions with the body in physical life and is affected by the body and mind. It is thought to be the core of the will of man where decisions are made. Jesus said, "out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, etc." Not a physical heart, but a spiritual heart. The same place people are crushed by a cheating spouse, or the death of their child or spouse. When the spirit of a person is wounded, it is far harder to bear than a physical wound. Neither is it as easy to cure. As a psychologist, you are aware of such wounds. The mind is not sick, nor the body, but something else at the core of their being is affected. This trauma can lead to mental trouble, but the trauma is to the spirit and soul of a person...that unseen part. If we refuse to consider its existence, are we not burying our heads in the sand? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/25/2003 19:04:36 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 18:58:34 [Permalink]
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Have we arrived at a consensus for a distinction between 'spirit' and 'soul?'
Not yet. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 19:03:07 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by NubiWan
You are right, of course. If the 'spirit' or 'soul,' exists, and if it is, what is "me," then there would seem to have to be an 'interface' to the physical, connecting the two (?) together in some way, since it is usually claimed body and spirit/soul equates to one person. Right? None has been found, therefore...
Read the account of creation in Genesis and it is described exactly as God breathing into man the breath of life after forming him out of the dust.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 19:44:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
PhD descibes accurately how the eye functions, but me don't see no bouncing protons, me sees the world. Can say with certainty that particles exist, that there is no way for me to actually perceive naturally. Or in my natural state, they are undetectable, "non-physical." It is my faith in the scientific method, that gives me the sense of certainty of their existence.
I don't know that I so much have faith in the scientific method as a realization that all other methods, in comparison, fail so miserably in making accurate predictions and explanations about the universe, as to be unworthy of further consideration.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 19:54:15 [Permalink]
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You've managed to reply to my post, but not its content. But, I'll humour you.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
If there is a spirit, there is also a realm where the spirit exists, invisible, it would seem, to the physical eye.
If the existence of the spirit requires an entire realm, how does this realm connect with the physical so that spirit and body are joined?
quote:
It is said that God is a Spirit and man cannot see Him, as are the angels and devils spirits.
A lot of things are said about God that don't make sense.
quote:
The spirit can exist without the body, but the body cannot exist without the spirit.
Do you know this empirically, or merely dogmatically?
quote:
The spirit functions with the body in physical life and is affected by the body and mind. It is thought to be the core of the will of man where decisions are made.
And where our senses can function without any sensory hardware, apparently.
quote:
Jesus said, "out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, etc." Not a physical heart, but a spiritual heart. The same place people are crushed by a cheating spouse, or the death of their child or spouse. When the spirit of a person is wounded, it is far harder to bear than a physical wound. Neither is it as easy to cure.
Empirical knowledge or dogmatic? What about amputees?
quote:
As a psychologist, you are aware of such wounds. The mind is not sick, nor the body, but something else at the core of their being is affected.
Hardly. I know of no psychologists who, upon discovering deep mental trauma in a patient, simply throw up their arms and say, "Well, this is a spirit problem; it's out of my hands." Such a response would be a severe dereliction of duty.
quote:
This trauma can lead to mental trouble, but the trauma is to the spirit and soul of a person...that unseen part. If we refuse to consider its existence, are we not burying our heads in the sand?
If we consider "spirit trauma" an untreatable condition, we are most certainly burying our heads in the sand.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 05:03:42 [Permalink]
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If the existence of the spirit requires an entire realm, how does this realm connect with the physical so that spirit and body are joined?
A good question.
The spirit can exist without the body, but the body cannot exist without the spirit.[/quote]
Do you know this empirically, or merely dogmatically?
To clarify, I believe the scripture teaches that when a man dies, his body returns to dust, but his spirit continues to go to God or hell and punishment.
When the spirit of a person is wounded, it is far harder to bear than a physical wound. Neither is it as easy to cure.[/quote]
Empirical knowledge or dogmatic? What about amputees?
What about them? It seems there spiritual and emotional state is far more affected than the healing of this horrible wound. The body should simply mend as best it can and the mind accept it's dilema and move on, however, it is clearly seen in most cases that the inner trauma is far greater.
Hardly. I know of no psychologists who, upon discovering deep mental trauma in a patient, simply throw up their arms and say, "Well, this is a spirit problem; it's out of my hands." Such a response would be a severe dereliction of duty.
When a medical doctor sees signs of depression in his patient, does he throw up his hands or refer them to someone who can help? And should a psychologist think that he or she can solve all problems not physical? Only the arrogant. Would they deny the usefulness of spiritual counselors like pastors? Many do, I'm afraid.
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If we consider "spirit trauma" an untreatable condition, we are most certainly burying our heads in the sand.
[/quote]
Who said anything about untreatable? That is your assumption. Yet even medical doctors recognize incurable states. I know psychologist and psychiatrist also acknowlege such states. "But with God, all things are possible". To not believe in God is to abandon such cases to hopelessness. Such cases were brought to Jesus and he healed them, including lunatics, demon possessed, lepers, blind, deaf, maimed. Just read the Gospel accounts for hundreds of references. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 09:31:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar:
If there is a spirit, there is also a realm where the spirit exists, invisible, it would seem, to the physical eye.
For the past 15 years or so, theoretical physicists have been studying something called (Super) String Theory. (The parentheses around "super" are mine; the word "super" has to do with an algebraic concept called "Super Symmetry".)
We, PhDreamer's physical body & brain, live in what is usually called "three dimensions" (plus another 'dimension' called "time"). The SuperString Theorists posit that the Universe has (up to) eleven dimensions; six of which are curled up so tightly that they measure smaller than sub-atomic scale (--and are, therefore, "invisible" to us).
These (tightly curled up) six dimensions are (as I understand things) orthoganal/perpendicular to our spacial 3-dimensions and, thus (as I understand things), exist everywhere in our 3-dimensions of "Space".
A co-worker of mine once asked on the on the forum boards at http://SuperStringTheory.com if anyone knew about the geometry within these curled up 6-dimensions. While there was a type/name of a geometry given, no one seemed to know much about even the geometry of these dimensions----much less what, if anything, existed there.
This many-dimensional structure falls out of the math of theoretical physics. Observational data are missing.
I believe, (---purely my own belief: Physicists prefer not to make such rash speculations---), that 3, or perhaps all 6, of these curled-up dimensions would be the perfect 'place' to find the home of the body's associated spirit/soul;--as well as, perhaps, of such entities as angles, disembodied spirits, etc.
It's a thought, anyway---one which would explain many, many so-far inexplicable phenomena. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 09:49:36 [Permalink]
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| What inexplicable phenomena what those be? |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 10:02:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
What inexplicable phenomena what those be?
Most all of Psychology, for starters.
I suppose you were thinking of "parapsychological" things, though.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 13:57:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
To clarify, I believe the scripture teaches that when a man dies, his body returns to dust, but his spirit continues to go to God or hell and punishment.
[/b]
Okay.
quote:
Empirical knowledge or dogmatic? What about amputees?
What about them? It seems there spiritual and emotional state is far more affected than the healing of this horrible wound. The body should simply mend as best it can and the mind accept it's dilema and move on, however, it is clearly seen in most cases that the inner trauma is far greater.
This is backwards. The body never "heals" from an amputation - the severed limb never grows back. The person must alter parts of his lifestyle in order to compensate. Eventually, the person learns to do many things that they were intially unable to do. Thus, it appears the "inner trauma" eventually heals, whereas the physical trauma does not.
quote:
When a medical doctor sees signs of depression in his patient, does he throw up his hands or refer them to someone who can help? And should a psychologist think that he or she can solve all problems not physical? Only the arrogant. Would they deny the usefulness of spiritual counselors like pastors? Many do, I'm afraid.
How does a clinician discern a treatable condition from "spiritual trauma"? They don't exactly teach that in med school, you know.
quote:
Who said anything about untreatable? That is your assumption.
"Untreatable" in a clinical sense, of course.
quote:
Yet even medical doctors recognize incurable states. I know psychologist and psychiatrist also acknowlege such states.
I'm sure. But at no point do legitimate physicians or psychologists throw up their hands and say, "Send them to the pastor/rabbi/exorcist!" when faced with an "incurable" state.
quote:
"But with God, all things are possible". To not believe in God is to abandon such cases to hopelessness.
Or to cease thinking that, if the going gets really tough, there's someone to bail you out. It's mildly interesting that Christians even feel the need to do things for themselves, with all the supernatural nudging that God supposedly provides.
quote:
Such cases were brought to Jesus and he healed them, including lunatics, demon possessed, lepers, blind, deaf, maimed. Just read the Gospel accounts for hundreds of references.
Faith healing, huh? Are you sure you want to go there? Two words: Benny Hinn.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 14:20:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I believe, (---purely my own belief: Physicists prefer not to make such rash speculations---), that 3, or perhaps all 6, of these curled-up dimensions would be the perfect 'place' to find the home of the body's associated spirit/soul;--as well as, perhaps, of such entities as angles, disembodied spirits, etc.
You, yourself, just explained how these dimensions-above-three are tiny, curled-up pieces of space-time. In fact, their existences are mathematically necessitated by the nature of string theory. They only have those theoretical properties that are sufficient to allow strings to vibrate. They are not hypothetical hiding places for "angles[sic]," "disembodied spirits," etc!
quote:
It's a thought, anyway---one which would explain many, many so-far inexplicable phenomena.
It is extremely disingenuous, and entirely unwarranted, to claim a defined mathematical construct is a potential metaphysical panacea. The whole of string theory has suggested precisely nothing about the possibility of non-physical beings. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2003 : 09:38:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamerquote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I believe, (---purely my own belief: Physicists prefer not to make such rash speculations---), that 3, or perhaps all 6, of these curled-up dimensions would be the perfect 'place' to find the home of the body's associated spirit/soul;--as well as, perhaps, of such entities as angles, disembodied spirits, etc.
You, yourself, just explained how these dimensions-above-three are tiny, curled-up pieces of space-time. In fact, their existences are mathematically necessitated by the nature of string theory. They only have those theoretical properties that are sufficient to allow strings to vibrate. They are not hypothetical hiding places for "angles[sic]," "disembodied spirits," etc!
quote:
PhDreamer continues:quote:
More by rusty, trusty Comp. Org
It's a thought, anyway---one which would explain many, many so-far inexplicable phenomena.
It is extremely disingenuous, and entirely unwarranted, to claim a defined mathematical construct is a potential metaphysical panacea. The whole of string theory has suggested precisely nothing about the possibility of non-physical beings.
Sorry about the "angles", PhDreamer: It's one of those words whose spelling I always mix up with an entirely different word. (Besides: Who knows if the 6 curled up dimensions even have such geometrical things as "angles"!!) I of course meant "angels".
I see nothing dangerous (--nor "disingenuous", nor "entirely unwarranted"--) whatsoever about such a speculation by a lay-person such as me. Or even, for that matter, a truly brave physicist.
What I do see as imprudent (--or even, perhaps, dangerous--) is to uncover an extra 6 dimensions (or even 3 dimensions--crossed, presumably, with time) and to pretend that nothing exists there.
Since many volk believe that there do exist such things as angels (and many other "insubstantial" entities---or, at least, insubstantial in our 3 dimensions), it seems reasonable to me to mesh the two puzzles together,--at least for the purpose of investigation or hypothesis.
Anyway, since having posted my first comment no angels have "gotten on my case", (--and they usually do whenever I annoy them: 'Alas!' and 'Woe-unto-poor-pitiful me!!'--), it follows that I am probably wrong. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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