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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:46:49 [Permalink]
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I think that all Gorillas are very moral, very spiritual people.
All herd and pack animals are moral. If one turns up that isn't they are forced from the herd. This could be a sardine who turns right when the school turns left (that's all fish morals would amount to) or a wolf who is viscous and is forced to leave by it's pack mates, or a murder who is imprisoned by the police. Removing them from society increases the survival possibilities for the herd but lowers them for the offender. It virtually negates any possibility that the immoral one could reproduce.
Do you really want to cite the Catholic Church to deny Gorillas their spirituality?
I didn't say Catholic. And there is no such thing as a spirit to deny. Gorillas aren't concerned with spirituality. They are concerned with eating.
As I wrote, I personally think that Gorillas not only have a "soul" but are of a higher level of spirituality than we humans.
Then you are clouding reality with superstition, and a little "New Age" nonsense.
As to "superNATURAL": If the String Theorists are right and we, in fact, exist in (at least) 10 dimensions then that is a part of nature.
I've only heard 7, but no matter. You are still twisting science to make excuses for baseless beliefs. Why would there be anything living in these other dimensions that wasn't in the ones we perceive? It isn't like they were realms. And why do you say they are there if you don't perceive them?
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 13:59:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
<snip>
The Christian church is quite emphatic about animals not having souls (or spirits for that matter) so gorilla morals show that morals aren't supernatural.
Quite right. My apologies. Err. What is "the Christian church"? 
(Wasn't it King Solomon who first raised the issue non-humans and souls?) (A distinct and as yet unstudied issue is whether any extra-Solars here in the Solar System would have a soul.  )
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:07:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
(Wasn't it King Solomon who first raised the issue non-humans and souls?) (A distinct and as yet unstudied issue is whether any extra-Solars here in the Solar System would have a soul. )
I am certain that my at has a soul. She must havs because I damn the wretched beast to predition on a daily basis. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:32:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tokyodreamer
Morals are simply another part of the brain's function. PhDreamer can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the part of the brain responsible for our "morality" is the frontal lobe (or located somewhere up front).
Yes, at least in part. It's been a number of years since I've studied, but the data was starting to suggest the frontal lobe is a "moral supervisor." That is, a moral rule might be physically stored in the temporal lobe somewhere, but when faced with a particular situation, the frontal lobe is the part that says, "Apply rule R, stored in location T1 now." This makes sense, because Gage's behavior wasn't just despicable, it was inappropriate - some accounts have him acting calmly and pleasantly in situations that didn't call for it.
quote:
Another example would simply be drug effects. Give someone a hit of PCP, maybe throw in some LSD and cocaine (but not enough to kill them). Their "morals" usually take an extended vacation. How is this possible if the mind and spirit are separate?
This is an excellent point. We often hear that alcohol reduces inhibitions or allows us to do the things we "deeply desire." This makes perfect sense if there is a part of the brain that is tasked with rule-application that is especially susceptible to alcohol.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2003 : 15:43:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I think that you can rest absolutely assured that it will be a TRULY COLD day in hell before you hear the first string theorist even mention spirits----or even speculate on what might 'live' in those 6 curled up dimensions.
No kidding! That's because superstring theory is a model. The greater-than-three dimensions don't exist as true mental constructs - they are equations only. String theorists do not "speculate" about the contents of the greater-than-three dimensions because they already know what's in them, inasmuch as they are an inextricable part of the model. "Speculation" about the contents of the greater-than-three dimensions is thus limited to, very simplistically, what can be plugged into these equations and not give infinite or undefined solutions.
I'm asking, begging even: Please stop obsessively trying to cram pure mathematics into a pure philosophical framework!
I can scarcely be more clear than this.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 08:57:46 [Permalink]
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CO, I am terribly sorry - it seems I hit the edit button in my intent to reply. Please re-enter your post.
~PhD |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 03/10/2003 09:16:15 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 14:15:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
CO, I am terribly sorry - it seems I hit the edit button in my intent to reply. Please re-enter your post.
~PhD
I accidently did that before. I found a page in my cache that still had the original, and cut-and-pasted the text back in, so you might want to try that.
(And my sympathies, I know the guilt is biting!  ) |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2003 : 19:38:20 [Permalink]
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I didn't even think to look in the cache. It was at work, and that computer's now turned off, so it's unlikely to turn up in the morning. Thanks for the tip, though.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 07:52:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I think that you can rest absolutely assured that it will be a TRULY COLD day in hell before you hear the first string theorist even mention spirits----or even speculate on what might 'live' in those 6 curled up dimensions.
No kidding! That's because superstring theory is a model. The greater-than-three dimensions don't exist as true mental constructs - they are equations only. String theorists do not "speculate" about the contents of the greater-than-three dimensions because they already know what's in them, inasmuch as they are an inextricable part of the model. "Speculation" about the contents of the greater-than-three dimensions is thus limited to, very simplistically, what can be plugged into these equations and not give infinite or undefined solutions.
I'm asking, begging even: Please stop obsessively trying to cram pure mathematics into a pure philosophical framework!
I can scarcely be more clear than this.
On 10 January of some year, Enoch posted the following question over in the Extra Dimensions Forum (--in particular Extra Dimensions II--they are now on Extra Dimensions XI or X  --) on the Super String site (--this is a direct-link to the actual question/thread):quote:
Anyway, here's my question.
If we have 3 spacial dimension, and an additional 4th dimension that is temporal, why is it that the extra dimensions in string theory are considered to be spacial?
Read.  The extra dimensions are SPACIAL! 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 03/13/2003 07:20:26 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 09:26:24 [Permalink]
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I'm no string theorist, either, but...
Per the quote you supplied, they are "considered to be spacial" (emphasis mine). It's probably easier to conceptualize the whole model if the extra dimensions as spacial than it is to conceptualize the whole model if one of the extra dimensions is color, one sound, and one temperature (for examples).
Until someone can demonstrate that we can measure five or six spacial dimensions of a physical object we know to exist, then three spacial dimensions is all we've got, period. "Considering" them to be spacial only has meaning within the model, not the real world.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 14:24:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
"Considering" them to be spacial only has meaning within the model, not the real world.
Heh. My work here is done. Thanks, Dave.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2003 : 17:55:15 [Permalink]
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From what I gathered from my (limited) readings about string theory, the extra dimentions are supposed to be spacial. Where are they, you may ask? Here's the catch: they're curled up on themselves, and each one is actually near the Planck length in diameter, so that's why we can't yet see it.
When I read this, my bullshit meter went off the scale. 
*Edited to add: I don't think string theory is a valid scientific theory, it needs much more work. What, though, does this have to do with Spirit v Flesh?* |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 03/12/2003 18:01:27 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 07:25:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm no string theorist, either, but...
Per the quote you supplied, they are "considered to be spacial" (emphasis mine).
<snip>
The fault is mine. I probably should have included the first sentence from the questioner:quote:
I'm warning you now... I know much less about this stuff than you guys. Furthermore, I don't know how to spell, nor am I proficient in english grammer.
Anyway, here's my question. (etc.)
The link I provided above goes to the actual question and the resulting thread on the subject.
Take it (--the Physics--) or leave it (--in blissful ignorance).
The choice is your'n.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2003 : 07:26:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
"Considering" them to be spacial only has meaning within the model, not the real world.
Heh. My work here is done. Thanks, Dave.
Du bist ein ignoramous
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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