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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2004 : 20:17:38 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by chaloobi
Man is only one entity - body. Mind is an illusion, spirit merely a hope. If you physically alter a portion of your brain, assuming it doesn't kill you, you run a good chance of altering your mind as well. That's because they are one in the same.
BTW - this is my first ever post in this forum.
Thanks for your post, chaloobi.
I was surprised to see this topic continuing on after a year. There continues to be much interest in this topic. After spending a considerable amount of time in the Skeptic Friends Network I can see just how viable the question is and how much influence the answer has on so many people. If one believes there is no soul or spirit, or even mind, as chaloobi stated, then all religion is irrelevant as is any mention of spiritual influence. However, believing in the absence of mind, soul, and spirit does not eliminate the influence or activity of the same if they truly exist. I've heard many reports of people who have clinically died on an operating table who have seen and heard exactly what went on in the room after their passing and before their reviving. Such would not be possible without another entity present besides the body.
Also, when people sense anger, fear, love, etc. is this simply a physical reaction? When you think about your day to come tomorrow, your mind is at work, when you decide to go to bed at 9pm instead of 10pm, your spirit is at work with your body, deciding what you should do, while your body obeys and hops in bed. When you wake up in the morning and you're feeling sick, your body says stay home and sleep and your brain agrees. Your mind, however, tells you how you have a very important meeting that you're in charge of and your should be there. What to do...a choice is needed and the spirit is in charge of that department. The spirit decides you must go in, even though your body disagrees, you get up and forge ahead to work. If you had no spirit, wouldn't your body dictate that you should stay home? A person is far more complicated than one thinks. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 08:30:13 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
I've heard many reports of people who have clinically died on an operating table who have seen and heard exactly what went on in the room after their passing and before their reviving.
Many of the rest of us have heard such reports, as well, and so far, they've all come down to a question of what the word "exactly" means. For example, one woman knew there would be a drill used during her surgery, and after she was revived, reported that she heard the sound of drilling. Go figure. She didn't (so far as I know) report the length of time the drilling went on, nor the relative pitch of the sound, so "exactly" doesn't even begin to be an appropriate adjective for her description of the drill. She had a vague idea that there would be drilling, and she reported a vague description of it. No surprises there at all.
As far as I can tell, nobody has ever done a properly-controlled experiment on this phenomenon, in which video and audio recordings of the operating theater are compared by independent judges to a testimony from the person who was clinically dead, that review being done prior to contact being allowed between the patient and anyone else in the recordings. I don't think such a test could be performed ethically, anyway, so it's unlikely there will be many takers, and thus the question will be unlikely to be conclusively resolved.
Until it is, it appears that if the body dies, so does the mind. Conversely, like having one's appendix removed, if the mind is destroyed, the body can live on. Do brain-dead people have souls any longer? Or have they already departed for realms beyond?
All animals are, indeed, "far more complicated than one thinks," which is why a simplistic, dualistic view of a mind separate from the body should really be avoided. Besides which, just how can a "spirit," which is neither energy nor matter, affect and control the wholly-material body without violating known physical laws? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 18:02:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I suppose, though, that your comment was meant in a joking manner.
That it was.
However, in a mathematical sense, it holds true.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2004 : 18:09:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
Man is only one entity - body.
<snip>
If you physically alter a portion of your brain, assuming it doesn't kill you, you run a good chance of altering your mind as well. That's because they are one in the same.
BTW - this is my first ever post in this forum. 
Welcome!
I agree with your statement that the mind is a manifestation of the brain. I've seen first hand that a physically altered brain results in an alteration of the mind. In several instances, but different situations. I see no other alternative conclusion from the evidense that makes as much sense. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2004 : 07:57:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
<snip> then all religion is irrelevant as is any mention of spiritual influence. <snip>
Religion without a soul is still very useful from a social engineering standpoint. Human beings generally have a big problem with concepts like 'no matter what, I am going to die.' Religion is a psychological salve for the horror of this eventuality. However, I agree with you that without a soul, religion and spirituality are more or less irrelevant in the context of the faithful. In fact, along that line of reasoning, without the mythologies that give purpose to life and the universe, EVERYTHING becomes irrelevant - the VOID of nihilism. But that's a whole different issue . . . 
quote:
I've heard many reports of people who have clinically died on an operating table who have seen and heard exactly what went on in the room after their passing and before their reviving.
Ok, There is dead, and then there is DEAD. Clinical death does not mean brain death. I seriously doubt there are any reliable accounts of people rising again after true brain death.
When you pull some guy out of cold water after 20 minutes of cardiac arrest and revive him, his brain was not dead. And though the brain's metabolism has been slowed and it's a bit oxygen starved, it's not inconceivable that it's still capable of receiving input from the senses, like sound. Which would explain hearing paramedics working on him. I'm sure the same could apply to someone who 'dies' on the operating table. The phenomena they experience, like feelings of floating and seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel can be explained by oxygen starvation and general distress of the neurons, causing them to generate these sensations.
quote:
Also, when people sense anger, fear, love, etc. is this simply a physical reaction?
Yes. Of course.
quote:
When you think about your day to come tomorrow, your mind is at work, when you decide to go to bed at 9pm instead of 10pm, your spirit is at work with your body, deciding what you should do, while your body obeys and hops in bed. When you wake up in the morning and you're feeling sick, your body says stay home and sleep and your brain agrees. Your mind, however, tells you how you have a very important meeting that you're in charge of and your should be there. What to do...a choice is needed and the spirit is in charge of that department. <snip>
Everything you write above can be accounted for without a spirit and mind-body separation.
quote:
If you had no spirit, wouldn't your body dictate that you should stay home? A person is far more complicated than one thinks.
Just because your mind IS your body doesn't mean you won't run across conflicting priorities in your life and that you won't be capable of deciding between them.
Simple example: My feet hurt, but I'm hungry. I have no food in the house and the closest store is a half mile away. I don't have a car so I'll have to walk. What do I do? The decision is made based on whether the discomfort of walking is more or less than the discomfort of hunger. No spirit need exist to make the decision.
The same principle applies with the more complex scenario of going to work when you're sick. Yes, you feel like crap. But if you don't show up to work there are consequences - an angry boss, loss of pay perhaps, maybe even the loss of the job, loss of esteem in the eys of your peers, pressure from your wife. There are many variables that can come into play when making even the simplest decisions. Essentially it all comes down to what you perceive is most uncomfortable to face. And even that can be complicated; some people feel driven for various reasons to embrace the less comfortable route. . . .
Yes, humans are very complex. . . but that doesn't require a soul to be true.
Since a soul is completely undetectable, directly or indirectly, I see no reason to believe there is one. The soul is a handy concept to give fearful people peace of mind. It negates the finality of death. It is an incarnation of hope. But if you don't need that hope, or you're preoccupied with the truth of the human condition, then you are forced to acknowledge the soul is no more real than dragons and wizards. |
-Chaloobi
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 07:37:10 [Permalink]
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I seriously doubt there are any reliable accounts of people rising again after true brain death.
There are examples if you look for them.
I'm sure the same could apply to someone who 'dies' on the operating table. The phenomena they experience, like feelings of floating and seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel can be explained by oxygen starvation and general distress of the neurons, causing them to generate these sensations.
I see, so oxygen starvation will result in greater brain activity? It usually results in unconsciousness and death. You can't have it both ways.
Just because your mind IS your body doesn't mean you won't run across conflicting priorities in your life and that you won't be capable of deciding between them.
The point is that there IS a conflict, a conflict resulting from different aspects...the body says one thing, the mind/soul, another. To say man is simply a body is to say the body is all the man is. When in fact, his mind, his emotions, his decisions in life are not simply a result of bodily reaction. You are trying to have it both ways with your theory...either we are all physical/body or we have a complex body with many aspects (which I am giving one way to explain).
Simple example: My feet hurt, but I'm hungry. I have no food in the house and the closest store is a half mile away. I don't have a car so I'll have to walk. What do I do? The decision is made based on whether the discomfort of walking is more or less than the discomfort of hunger. No spirit need exist to make the decision.
Unless, of course, you see an accident on the way and out of compassion for the injured you stop to help the victim, forgetting completely about your hunger. You end up at home physically and emotionaly tired, having forgotten about your own physical need. This happens to many people. Their compassion, an aspect that is not related to physical need, takes over and their physical needs go unfulfilled, while another's need is met. You are saying this is a completely physical/bodily action. I am saying, it is beyond a bodily reaction. Where was the physical need of the hungry person met? It was delayed due to another need, a spiritual need to help another in trouble.
The same principle applies with the more complex scenario of going to work when you're sick. Yes, you feel like crap. But if you don't show up to work there are consequences - an angry boss, loss of pay perhaps, maybe even the loss of the job, loss of esteem in the eys of your peers, pressure from your wife. There are many variables that can come into play when making even the simplest decisions. Essentially it all comes down to what you perceive is most uncomfortable to face. And even that can be complicated; some people feel driven for various reasons to embrace the less comfortable route. . . .
Indeed, you are making my point. Sometimes, needs or aspects beyond the physical are taken into account, such as concern for my company and others who are depending on me...they might even understand that I was sick and excuse me, but a higher ideal is being reached for by some. The moral decision is very important to some (right or wrong), while the physical (need a paycheck) moves others, and there are many more reasons....complexity is the key....the body is just not that complex. These aspects go beyond the physical...the mind goes beyond the physical, also. That's why it is considered part of the soul.
Yes, humans are very complex. . . but that doesn't require a soul to be true.
Call it what you will, but a body by itself just isn't up to the task.
Since a soul is completely undetectable, directly or indirectly, I see no reason to believe there is one.
Oh, it's detectable...if you are breathing, you have a soul, you just don't realize it. When you die and your body lies dead on the ground, then that body is without your soul...Your soul and spirit, which are one with your body, can leave the body and exist outside of it. That is the Christian perspective. But, yes, the soul is totally detectable, without a soul in a body, it will lie down and not move anymore...we call it death. The soul and spirit give life to a body..it's the real you.
The soul is a handy concept to give fearful people peace of mind. It negates the finality of death.
The finality of death, as you call it, was negated by the risen Savior who conquered this foe of all men. Had he not shown himself to his disciples many times after his resurrection, even to 500 at one time, then you might have a point. They saw him raise at least 3 different people from death and this also helped them realize he had power over it. It's Jesus who taught about life after death and then actually died and rose up three days later and showed himself to his disciples. This was the beginning of Christianity. I think all of us would believe like you unless we had experience in some manner this "resurrected, living Christ". You may have not experienced any such thing, as yet, but this does not mean others have not and have been assured there is life after death and eternal life is worth seeking for. This life, however, is not simply having an after life, but a relationship with God, which begins in this life. According to Jesus, people can be dead in their soul, yet be walking around, living and breathing. There is an abundant life that he talks about in the Bible. His disciples experience that life of love and mercy. One usually thinks it is impossible until they have a taste of it. However, one doesn't have to experience something to believe it is possible or plausable. Scientists many times conceive an idea and then try to bring it about, sometimes discovering new things. This "soul/spirit" thing is outside of the sphere of physical science, however, and a naturalist will not even look for it because of his belief that there is nothing outside of the physical. Jesus explained the Spirit of God like the wind, you can't see it with the eye, but you can see it's result in moving the trees and blowing across your face. People can't see the spiritual but they can experience it, including changes in their nature. One must believe in more than what he sees with his eyes, however. Should our natural senses be the only factors in life?
Again, I repeat, that one's emotions, though related to the body, are not directly caused by the body. There are unseen things at work that are yet to be explained by science. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 08:20:51 [Permalink]
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LOL - I appreciate your replies but there's little common ground for discussion on this so I'm not going to address your points. You can't convince me to have religous faith and I can't convince you not to - nor do I want to. It's a map for frustration and ultimatley hard feelings so let's not go down that road.  |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 04/13/2004 08:22:36 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 08:42:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:
I see, so oxygen starvation will result in greater brain activity? It usually results in unconsciousness and death. You can't have it both ways.
Actually, you can have it both ways. It is in fact well known that oxygen deprivation to the brain can cause hallucinations. And some of these hallucinations, like the tunnel of light, are common shared experiences. So, loss of oxygen to the brain can cause similar experiences in different people leading to the conclusion that the deprivation can cause specific kinds of hallucinations. I would suggest taking a look at Susan Blackmores work in the area of NDE.
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91nde.html
See: http://skepdic.com/nde.html
quote:
Blackmore says science can also explain those tunnels: Electrical brain scans show that in our last moments, as the brain is deprived of oxygen, cells fire frantically and at random in the part of the brain which govern vision.
Blackmore:
"Now, imagine that you've got lots and lots of cells firing in the middle, towards fewer at the outside, what's it going to look like? Bright light in the middle fading off towards dark at the outside," Blackmore said. "I think that's where the tunnel comes from. And as the oxygen level drops, so the bright light becomes bigger and more immediate, and you get this sensation of rushing forward into the light."
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/DrJohnson/GMA020108Near_death_experiences.html |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 23:14:47 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dave W.
As far as I can tell, nobody has ever done a properly-controlled experiment on this phenomenon, in which video and audio recordings of the operating theater are compared by independent judges to a testimony from the person who was clinically dead, that review being done prior to contact being allowed between the patient and anyone else in the recordings. I don't think such a test could be performed ethically, anyway, so it's unlikely there will be many takers, and thus the question will be unlikely to be conclusively resolved.
You have a valid point, but we can't exclude the testimony of people who have gone through this as completely invalid. Even one person who is clinically dead describing in detail what was said and by whom and other such details is reason to not conclude the assumption that there is no soul or spirit
Do brain-dead people have souls any longer? Or have they already departed for realms beyond?
A good question. In my understanding the Bible teaches that "life is in the blood". When blood is spilled in significant quantity or it stops flowing, life leaves the body. This does not happen to the "so called" brain dead, thus, there soul remains. Note that there is at least one confirmed case of a brain dead person who revived to have brain activity again. Such an instance by itself is reason to doubt the "brain death" theory.
just how can a "spirit," which is neither energy nor matter, affect and control the wholly-material body without violating known physical laws?
If the spirit is what gives that body "life", well, it's not too hard to understand. It is a very good question, however. "Violating know physical laws" -- consider that the question of how life comes about has yet to be answered by science. No experiment to make life from non-organic matter(or matter that was never before alive) has ever been successful. Thus, how life begins is still an unknown to physical science. We simply know, life begets life and non-life cannot beget life. How living cells are alive, we only know the mechanics of. How they reproduce, we seem to understand. Why the original lifeform became alive, science cannot yet tell us. Consider that the origin of life still evades scientific experiment. The Bible says, "God formed man out of the dust of the ground....God breathed into man and he became a living soul." This is an explanation, but not a scientific one...it does coincide with the "spirit of man" theory we are discussing. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 23:19:07 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by chaloobi
LOL - I appreciate your replies but there's little common ground for discussion on this so I'm not going to address your points. You can't convince me to have religous faith and I can't convince you not to - nor do I want to. It's a map for frustration and ultimatley hard feelings so let's not go down that road.
No problem. Was not intending to convince you about religion, rather to explain the background of why some find life after death compelling. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 05:48:05 [Permalink]
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| Life after death would be nice and I hope there is something to it. Unfortunately there's no good reason in the world to think it'll happen. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 09:53:10 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
There are examples if you look for them.
Suggesting that other people dig up evidence in support of your position is very bad form.quote:
The point is that there IS a conflict, a conflict resulting from different aspects...the body says one thing, the mind/soul, another. To say man is simply a body is to say the body is all the man is. When in fact, his mind, his emotions, his decisions in life are not simply a result of bodily reaction. You are trying to have it both ways with your theory...either we are all physical/body or we have a complex body with many aspects (which I am giving one way to explain).
We are a complex body with many organs, which can, indeed, have conflicting actions and reactions to the same stimuli. Harry's appendix doesn't "know" in any way that Harry's got an important meeting, all it "knows" is that is infected, and it sends signals to a largely-independent organ, the brain, saying "this part hurts." The brain, on the other hand, weighs this stimulus against the desire for a raise in pay, and opts to go to work, anyway. Assuming that one impulse "should" override any other is naive.quote:
Indeed, you are making my point. Sometimes, needs or aspects beyond the physical are taken into account...
Such "needs beyond the physical" are not necessarily "needs of the supernatural."quote:
Oh, it's detectable...if you are breathing, you have a soul, you just don't realize it.
Oh? I was taught that animals (cats, dogs, etc.) don't have souls, yet they breathe. Thus, breathing is not indicative of a soul. Trees also respirate, do they have souls?quote:
But, yes, the soul is totally detectable, without a soul in a body, it will lie down and not move anymore...we call it death. The soul and spirit give life to a body..it's the real you.
With or without a soul, death looks the same, and so cannot indicate whether or not souls exist.quote:
This "soul/spirit" thing is outside of the sphere of physical science, however, and a naturalist will not even look for it because of his belief that there is nothing outside of the physical.
Once again, you are in no position to make claims about what naturalists will or will not do. You have been wrong before, and are wrong on the above claim, as well. Naturalists have looked for evidence, and found none.quote:
Again, I repeat, that one's emotions, though related to the body, are not directly caused by the body.
Repetition does not make something true.quote:
There are unseen things at work that are yet to be explained by science.
How about, "there are natural things at work that are yet to be explained by science"? I would agree with that. I have yet to see a unquestionable demonstration of the metaphysical, however, and that's what you're talking about.quote:
You have a valid point, but we can't exclude the testimony of people who have gone through this as completely invalid.
Unless this testimony can be verified through independent means, it is invalid as evidence of the surivival of the "mind" after death.quote:
Even one person who is clinically dead describing in detail what was said and by whom and other such details is reason to not conclude the assumption that there is no soul or spirit
I have not yet seen a case in which it could be determined that the details described occured while a person in clinically dead, and not before or afterwards.quote:
A good question. In my understanding the Bible teaches that "life is in the blood". When blood is spilled in significant quantity or it stops flowing, life leaves the body. This does not happen to the "so called" brain dead, thus, there soul remains.
Ah, so now the possession of a soul is dependent upon blood, and not necessarily breath. So much for tree souls.quote:
Note that there is at least one confirmed case of a brain dead person who revived to have brain activity again. Such an instance by itself is reason to doubt the "brain death" theory.
I've got no idea what "brain death theory" you're talking about.quote:
If the spirit is what gives that body "life", well, it's not too hard to understand.
"If" is the question which should be answered first, of course.quote:
It is a very good question, however. "Violating know physical laws" -- consider that the question of how life comes about has yet to be answered by science.
No. You are evading the question by changing the subject.quote:
We simply know, life begets life and non-life cannot beget life.
We "know" no such thing, because we also know that life begets non-life (fertilized eggs which don't divide, for example), and nobody has ever demonstrated that life cannot possibly come from a large collection of organic molecules (quite the opposite, as time goes by).quote:
The Bible says, "God formed man out of the dust of the ground....God breathed into man |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 11:46:16 [Permalink]
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| Dave - you DO rock. You have fortitude for challenging the voluntarily ignorant that I have long ago abandoned as far too time consuming in relation to the reward the exercise delivers. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 12:21:49 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi wrote:quote:
Dave - you DO rock.
Thanks!quote:
You have fortitude for challenging the voluntarily ignorant that I have long ago abandoned as far too time consuming in relation to the reward the exercise delivers.
Actually, once you realize that there are probably hundreds of people who read any of this stuff, and at least a couple of "fence sitters" among them who really pay attention, the "reward" becomes evident, even if it isn't tangible.
The above isn't to imply that the "fence" sits between "soul" and "no soul" arguments, as right now, it lies between "soul" and "no evidence of soul." That is, I don't claim that souls are non-existent or impossible, instead I see that their existence has not yet been demonstrated, nor do they appear to be required to explain what we observe. This is, perhaps, a subtle distinction, but a necessary one to differentiate between the skeptic and the cynic. If solid evidence of souls becomes available, I will gladly hop the fence.
Actually, if solid evidence of the non-existence or impossibility of souls becomes available, I'd gladly hop that fence, too. In reality, I do sit on the fence which divides believers from cynics (at least on this issue). That's just not the fence which I would want anybody else to climb over at the moment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 16:04:26 [Permalink]
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| In reply to the original question posed here (does man have a spirit or is he just mind & bod?), I think that lacking any physical evidence for the existence of a soul, I have to agree with Kurt Vonnegut (in Breakfast of Champions if memory serves) when he wrote that its all just the chemicals running around in our brains (or words to that effect). |
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