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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2003 : 08:39:06
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Because we get everything about 6 - 12 months later than anyone else in the world, I just handed over some hard earned dollars to see "Bowling with Columbine" by Michael Moore.
His series "The Awful Truth" got minimal airplay on one of out lesser watched channels (one with Current Affairs, animal and history documentaries as opposed to reality and quiz shows) so his work was relatively unknown by most over here until this film was released and the "Stupid White Men" book popped up.
I was just wondering if I could get your opinion on his work and does it piss you off that there is a fair bit of America bashing involved. Perversely, I think that is part of the reason it is doing so well over here. According to the letters section in the National Newspapers, opinions about your foreign policy have been taking a sharp dive of late.
Anyway, just a couple of questions so I can gain a different perspective.
Is what he portrays sensationalised?
Do any of you agree with his views?
Any comments about the way he does his work?
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 11:47:50 [Permalink]
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I loved Bowling for Columbine. I think he makes a good case in it and backs it up pretty well. I wasn't necessarily in agreement with every single thing he said but pretty damn close to everything. The American media is out of control and I have noticed the way they sell fear for a long time. Over the summer we had children abductions filling the news even though non-familial child abductions are extremely rare and then in the fall we had the Snipers filling almost every news outlet. While the sniper story was big we had bigger fish to worry about like an election and a war with Iraq which suddenly became back page stories.
Is telling the truth America bashing? I didn't see it as bashing at all. Why did you choose those words I wonder? I think trying to identify a problem is the first step in finding a solution. Admittedly, there was a lot thrown in for shock value but when it was done it was relevent but I was susprised that his case didn't end up being about guns alone being the problem. But that's usually how the world works isn't it? Most problems are far more complex than they at first appear.
It's sad that I have seen many people attack Moore and attempt to marginalize him as a wacko in much the same way the media did to Ralph Nader. But I really don't think bashing is the right word to use at all. Bashing is, to me, sort of like name calling. It might or might not have truth behind it but that's not important. Being critical for the sake of being critical. Moore was just identifying problems which, as I said, is the first step in finding a solution. Sometimes the truth hurts and that's not necessarily a bad thing either.
By the way, thanks for starting this topic. I just saw Bowling last week and wanting to start some discussion on it myself but kept putting it off.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:38:30 [Permalink]
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| I haven't seen Bowling For Columbine, but Roger and Me was entertaining, if a bit misguided and heavy-handed. Bowling appears to be a love-it-or-leave-it film; a strong majority of the comments and reviews from left-leaning atheists have been positive. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:54:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I didn't see it as bashing at all. Why did you choose those words I wonder?
It's just that it weird to see something coming out of America about Americans that isn't full of that famous patriotic pride you guys have. Don't get me wrong; I think it's great that Americans are so patriotic, however sometimes this patriotism tends to overshadow the true issues. It seems to me, an outsider mind you, the last thing you want to be in the States is to seem unpatriotic---especially with current situations. Mike put forward a lot of facts and theories that you think would deem him disloyal. Especially in the opinion of the media.
We do get News hour with Jim Lehrer over here (delayed of course). It is from what I see, the most unbiased picture I can get of America from 10,000 kms away. Because face it, the actions of your nation will affect all of us in some way.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 01/18/2003 13:00:09 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 13:16:47 [Permalink]
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In many ways patriotism in America is equivalent to piety. If you don't have either watch out. Personally, I see much of the display of patriotism as displays of false piety where the symbols seem to be more important than what they are supposed to represent. And when asked, many Americans sporting the biggest flag on the block are curiously ingorant of the ideals this nation was based on and tend to want to look the other way when, time and time again, their nation and people promote dictatorships for the flimsiest of excuses. Frankly, it makes me sick to my stomach that America could become such a place. A place where people who dare to mention it are labelled radicals, or crazy or worse....un-American. I am not even slightly surprised that people in many nations worry about a country with so much power run by a people so thoughtless, so greedy and so willing to dump the ideals the nation was founded on at the drop of a hat and sit around nodding smugly at it all because they are so right and everyone else is so wrong.
I noticed in the paper the other day that there are fears of US troops coming under terrorist attack. It was not long ago that we debated what a terrorist attack meant. Most seemed to agree that it meant attacking civilians. Now even an attack on a military target is a terrorist act. Does that mean the US is always engaged in terrorist activity when it flexes its military muscle? Of course not! Anything the USA does has the blessings of God himself. Just ask him.
It's also funny that many of our patriotic stories are stories of terrorist acts. Anyone remember the Boston Tea Party? The tactics used by our founding father's were considered to be dishonorable for a civiized people back in the 1700s so in a way you could say that the USA started as a terrorist nation. But no, bad things don't stick to the USA. Not with God giving the thumbs up.
I say these things but I am still a US citizen. I have to wonder how long I can say these things as a citizen and stay out of jail the way things are going. But I am drifting dangerously off topic and will just end my little tantrum here.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 14:00:37 [Permalink]
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Thanks @tomic. The only criticism I have for Michael is that he can get just slightly over-self-righteous. COlUMBINE isn't showing in the area. I'd have to drive an hour-and-a-half to see it, so I'll wait for the tape as I did for Roger and Me and The TV series that was on Bravo. michaelmoore.com is a good stop on the internet.
It does seem to be Anti-American to be reasonable and care about one's fellow humans any more. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 14:22:32 [Permalink]
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It is the same over here, there is much debate whether we should enter the Gulf War again and assist America with its ongoing attack on Iraq (it hasn't really stopped since Desert Storm, has it??)
I am of the opinion that Saddam is your grubby little problem and you can deal with it - I don't agree with how you are doing it, but what can I say or do to change that. I am against Australians losing their lives purely for US economic gain, that's what Iraq is about, isn't it. Nth Korea doesn't have anything you guys need, so lets hold out the olive leaf. But I am howled down by the right wingers saying that America saved our arses back in WW2 so how dare you say that we turn our back on them.
So according to these right-winger, xenophobic pricks, I am a chardonnay sipping, left leaning "do-gooder" who is ultimately on Saddam's side. “Nuke the fucker, kill thousands of innocents people.” they say. “87 Australians lost their lives in Bali, it's payback time”. Unfortunately, that will be nothing compared to the carnage that a coalition of white Christian nations will do over there. I'm against murder of all peoples, be they white, coloured or bloody purple, especially for these vague reasons. That's what this war will be, murder plain and simple. David vs Goliath, but this time David ain't gunna win.
America was very wary of going into WW2 and it took Churchill months to persuade them, however with this showdown, Dubya can't wait to send his citizens (and Dubya's lapdogs can't wait to send theirs) to a place where they will kill and maim innocent people.
Since the Gulf War in '91, living standards in Iraq have nosedived, and it seems odd to me that this “War on Terrorism” will do nothing more than inspire more Iraqi men who lose their loved ones to join groups like Al Queda or the such to exact revenge on our respective countries.
It just makes no sense, and it really makes me sad. But what makes me sadder, is that I am considered un-Australian by the majority of our nations people for having these beliefs. We are one of the few democracies that achieved our independence without bloodshed and we are truly lucky to have done that, but with all this carnage going on, it really doesn't mean shit |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2003 : 21:05:50 [Permalink]
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And, just where does it say that a patriots duty is to follow without dissent? I think Michael Moore cares a lot about the subjects he takes on. When I was younger, I protested the Viet Nam war. I was told I was un-American for that. I heard slogans like "Love It or Leave It." But I did care about my country. I cared that my country was, to my thinking, doing the wrong thing. Why on earth would I have cared if I didn't love my country? So I did what little I could do to right what I saw as wrong. There was never a time, in all of that, that I felt as though I was being unpatriotic.
Dissent is a part of American life. It has been since the beginning. Without it, America as we know it will cease to exist and there will be nothing to be patriotic about.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2003 : 23:48:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
Anyway, just a couple of questions so I can gain a different perspective.
Is what he portrays sensationalised?
Do any of you agree with his views?
Any comments about the way he does his work?
1.Yes
2.No, I don't
3.Check out Larry Elder's web site
I have to post this quickly before I get booted off line. Trouble with my phone line. But will try to explain more later.
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