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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2003 : 11:45:17
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A poem by Robert G. Ingersoll:
IF
If Cathedrals had been Universities,
If Dungeons of the Inquisition had been Laboratories,
If Christians had believed in Character instead of Creed,
If they had taken from the Bible only that which is GOOD and thrown away the wicked and absurd,
If Temple domes had been Observatories,
If Priests had been Philosophers,
If Missionaries had taught useful arts instead of Bible lore,
If Astrology had been Astronomy,
If the Black Arts had been Chemistry,
If Superstition had been Science,
If Religion had been Humanity,
The world would be a heaven filled with love, and liberty and joy.
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2003 : 00:28:31 [Permalink]
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If Joe Stalin had "Loved his neighbor instead of slaughtering them-
If Aldolf hadn't thought he would help natural selection out by eliminating(what he considered) was the weaker species -
...-
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 01:01:50 [Permalink]
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Hitler was Christian. His atrocities against the Jews was taken straight from the writings of Martin Luther.
Nice try, but you are talking to Atheists here. Atheists were slaughtered by christians as policy until the seventeen hundreds. Since then it's been done on the sly. If you don't like the blood soaked history of christianity don't blame us...we aren't christians. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 07:17:08 [Permalink]
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| Though an atheist, I'm feel compelled to say that it's a pretty bad poem, and an even worse argument. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 08:12:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion:
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.'
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947.
quote:
If there is any doubt that Darwin was a raging racist, these words should leave no doubt: "At some future period (Darwin writes), not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla." (Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man 2nd ed (New York: A. L. Burt Co., I 874), p. 178).
"No rational man (writes Thomas Huxley, a contemporary evolutionist), cognizant of the facts, believes that the average Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favor, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried out on by thoughts and not by bites." (Thomas H. Huxley, "Lay Sermans, Addresses and Reviews" (New York: Appleton, 1871) p. 20. Huxley was arguing that blacks could not compete intellectually with Caucasians, even under equal and fair conditions.)
A half century later, Darwin follower Henry Fairfield Osborn writes: "The Negroid stock is even more ancient than the Caucasian and Mongolian, as may be proved by an examination not only of the brain, of the hair, of the bodily characters. such as the teeth, the genitalia, the sense organs, but of the instincts, the intelligence. The standard of intelligence of the average Negro is similar to that of the eleven-year-old youth of the species Homo sapiens. (Henry Fairfield Osborn, "The Evolution of the Human Races," Natural History, Jan./Feb. 1926. Reprinted in Natural History 89 (April 1980): 129.).
It should be no surprise that no lesser racist villain than Adolf Hitler picked up on Darwin's evolutionary theories. Karl Schleunes writes: "Darwin's notion of struggle for survival was quickly appropriated by the racist ... such a struggle, legitimized by the latest scientific views, justified the racists' conception of superior and inferior peoples ... and validated the conflict between them." (Karl A. Schleunes, The Twisted Road To Auchwitz (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1970)p. 30 , 32. Cited by J. Bergman, "Eugenics and Nazi Racial Policy," p. 118.)
Before 1859 (before Darwin's Origin), many scientists had questioned whether blacks were of the same species as whites, but they had no scientific basis for that notion. Things changed once Darwin presented his racist evolutionary schema. Darwin stated that African-Americans could not survive competition with their white near-relations, let alone being able to compete with the white race. According to Darwin, the African was inferior because he represented the missing-link" between ape and Teuton. (John C. Burham, Science, vol. 175 (February 4, 1972) p.506).
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 08:24:27 [Permalink]
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[quote]NIKOLAI LENIN: (b. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov,1870; d. 1924.) Lenin, the first murderous communist dictator of the USSR said: “Darwin put an end to the belief that the animal and vegetable species bear no relation to one another, except by chance, and that they were created by God , and hence immutable.” (The heart of this statement is: “Darwin put an end to the belief that the animal and vegetable species..were created by God....”)
Lenin was “...a confirmed atheist, dedicated to the destruction of...all religious worship...he regarded Christ with undisguised hatred.”
On his desk Lenin had a statue displayed in a “prominent position for all to see...its vivid presence dominated the room.” (What kind of statue?)
It was a “...bronze statue of an ape gazing at an oversized human skull.” This symbolized the evolutionary core of Lenin's atheism. It further symbolized the core of Marx's Communism which Lenin set about imposing on Russia and much of the rest of the world. When Lenin died in 1924, control of the Soviet Union passed to Joseph Stalin.
Let's glance at the role evolutionism played in Stalin's mind (a mind, all agree, which conceived and carried out the calculated murder of at least ten--and more likely--twenty to thirty million people, mostly Christians):
JOSEPH V. STALIN: (b. IOSIF VISSARIONOVICH DZHUGASHVILI, b.1879; d. 1953; Following Lenin, Stalin ruled the Soviet Union with an iron fist for thirty years. From Landmarks in the Life of Stalin we read:
“At a very early age, while still a pupil in the ecclesiastical school, Comrade Stalin developed a critical mind and revolutionary sentiments. He began to read Darwin and became an atheist.”
G. Gludjidze, a boyhood friend of Stalin's relates: “I began to speak of God. Joseph heard me out, and after a moment's silence said: ‘You know, they are fooling us, there is no God....'”
Gludjidze reported: “I was astonished at these words. I had never heard anything like it before. How can you say such things, Soso?” he asked Stalin, who replied:
“I will lend you a book to read: it will show you that the world and all living things are quite different from what you imagine, and all this talk about God is sheer nonsense.”
“What book is that?” his friend inquired.
“Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me.”
A few pages later, another person who was in school with Stalin, said of what they were taught:
“...in order to disabuse [i.e., free from deception or error] the minds of our seminary students of the myth that the world was created in six days, we had to acquaint ourselves with the geological origin and age of the earth, and be able to prove them in argument; we had to familiarize ourselves with Darwin's teachings.”
So, in plain words, the church school Joseph Stalin attended labored to get the Bible's explanation for origins out of kid's heads and fill those same heads with the evolutionary explanation for origins. And that was church school well over a hundred years ago! Education--public, private, church, TV, whatever--is THE tool for getting the evolution explanation for the origin of man and all else into peoples heads.
A quick note on how Mao Tse-tung made indoctrination into evolutionism his very first priority after the Communist victory in China in late 1949 is of interest, I think. See if you agree:
MAO TSE TUNG: (b. 1893; d. 1976) In a graduate school paper about the way the communists dealt with the 85% illiteracy problem in China, I found two things that stuck with me:
1) Mao's method was quite resourceful given what he had to work with. He called it “Each One Teach One”. It was basically the idea that every literate person would teach an illiterate person and, as soon as the pupil learned enough to read and write he would then teach what he had learned to another illiterate person. Within a |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 08:46:36 [Permalink]
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| Well DA, guess this means we can crown you the "Cut'n Paste Drivel King" of the day. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 09:40:49 [Permalink]
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Well Randy I guess we can call you the "I can't dispute the facts so I'll just do a drive by" Cheesehead of the day  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 11:59:24 [Permalink]
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The facts? You can't handle the facts!!
Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933, quoted from the Freedom From Religion Foundation quiz, "What Do You Know About The Separation of State and Church?"
We stand at the end of the Age of Reason. A new era of the magical explanation of the world is rising.
-- Adolf Hitler, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 12:28:06 [Permalink]
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| It's almost as if Robert G. Ingersoll knew DA personally |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 12:42:22 [Permalink]
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Phooie! at the NaySayers, Walt. I think that it's a very nice poem. 
(Edited to remove some unseemly formality.  )
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 02/08/2003 12:45:35 |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 14:09:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Phooie! at the NaySayers, Walt. I think that it's a very nice poem.
Thanks CO! I rather like it myself.
Hitler also said this:
"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook." |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2003 : 15:29:01 [Permalink]
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A few corrections:
quote:
If Cathedrals had been Universities,
Ever hear of Notre Dame?
quote:
If Temple domes had been Observatories,
Some were.
quote:
If Missionaries had taught useful arts instead of Bible lore,
Many were taught both.
quote:
If Astrology had been Astronomy,
How do ya think astronomy got started? Astrology.
quote:
If the Black Arts had been Chemistry,
How do ya think chemistry got started? Alchemy.
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 09:27:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Phooie! at the NaySayers, Walt. I think that it's a very nice poem.
Thanks CO! I rather like it myself.
Hitler also said this:
"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."
Quite a quote! That Hitler really knew what he was talking about (----perhaps that's why they came so close to realizing their "Thousand year reign".)
Without regard to Slater's earlier comment: "Even athiests have spirits!"
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 10:18:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
quote:
Sir Arthur Keith was a British anthropologist, an atheistic evolutionist and an anti-Nazi, but he drew this chilling conclusion:
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.'
Reference
Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947.
quote:
If there is any doubt that Darwin was a raging racist, these words should leave no doubt: "At some future period (Darwin writes), not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla." (Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man 2nd ed (New York: A. L. Burt Co., I 874), p. 178).
"No rational man (writes Thomas Huxley, a contemporary evolutionist), cognizant of the facts, believes that the average Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favor, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried out on by thoughts and not by bites." (Thomas H. Huxley, "Lay Sermans, Addresses and Reviews" (New York: Appleton, 1871) p. 20. Huxley was arguing that blacks could not compete intellectually with Caucasians, even under equal and fair conditions.)
A half century later, Darwin follower Henry Fairfield Osborn writes: "The Negroid stock is even more ancient than the Caucasian and Mongolian, as may be proved by an examination not only of the brain, of the hair, of the bodily characters. such as the teeth, the genitalia, the sense organs, but of the instincts, the intelligence. The standard of intelligence of the average Negro is similar to that of the eleven-year-old youth of the species Homo sapiens. (Henry Fairfield Osborn, "The Evolution of the Human Races," Natural History, Jan./Feb. 1926. Reprinted in Natural History 89 (April 1980): 129.).
It should be no surprise that no lesser racist villain than Adolf Hitler picked up on Darwin's evolutionary theories. Karl Schleunes writes: "Darwin's notion of struggle for survival was quickly appropriated by the racist ... such a struggle, legitimized by the latest scientific views, justified the racists' conception of superior and inferior peoples ... and validated the conflict between them." (Karl A. Schleunes, The Twisted Road To Auchwitz (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1970)p. 30 , 32. Cited by J. Bergman, "Eugenics and Nazi Racial Policy," p. 118.)
Before 1859 (before Darwin's Origin), many scientists had questioned whether blacks were of the same species as whites, but they had no scientific basis for that notion. Things changed once Darwin presented his racist evolutionary schema. Darwin stated that African-Americans could not survive competition with their white near-relations, let alone being able to compete with the white race. According to Darwin, the African was inferior because he represented th |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Phaedrus
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 02:24:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hitler was very clear on his Christian faith and unfourtunately it was based on Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" of 1543.
Indeed, if you read texts by historians trying to explain how the holocaust could have happened in 1930s Germany, much blame can be put at the feet of Martin Luther. The inaction of the German churches during the holocaust has also been well documented. Some church leaders of the time echoed Hitler's mythos by stating that the Jews deserved genocide since they had killed Christ! (See Straub's Roots of Evil)
Also, DA seems to have forgotten that the ad hominem argument is about as valid as dubya's political philosophy. Because Darwin, as an individual, may have been a racist; or because Stalin, as an individual, may have been enamoured with his own reading of Darwin's theory, does not vitiate evolutionary theory as such. The same, of course, holds true of religious folk and their excesses.
My argument would be however, that whereas science thrives on open inquiry and anti-dogmatism, religion's basic tenets are dogmatic and anti-democratic. It is therefore not surprising that religion and mysticism have fueled as much bloodshed over the centuries. Religious/mystic thinking is inherantly dangerous to open, democratic societies. No wars have been fought over the correct interpretation of E=mc2. Why does DA think that is?
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