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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2003 : 11:37:53
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If you haven't heard there is a division III women's basketball player who in protest is turning her back on the flag during the national anthem.
http://www.collegesports.com/sports/w-baskbl/stories/022203aar.html
I wonder what the opinions of the people on this board are on this form of protesting. Ever since the news of this story has escalated she has been hounded, jeered, booed, etc. by those claiming to be "true patriots" including being confronted by a supposed Vietnam vet during a game.
Knowing that we have a decent number of military or ex-military personnel on here I am especially interested on their take on this.
I personally find the following:
1. She is doing the protest for all the right reasons.
2. She is not doing it to show-boat or gain fame as far as I can tell (she is taking too much grief for that).
3. She is corageously standing up for what she believes to be true.
4. The main question is, is she protesting in the right way.
Now for my opinion:
The main complaint others seem to have is with her turning her back on the flag as a showing of disrespect for America. I say so what. I being a free person am free to respect and disrespect as I choose. If I feel (and I do) that the country I live in, is worthy of disrespect then I will show it. So what if others are offended by it.
I know that numeous people have sacrificed themselves or worked and toiled their entire lives so we can enjoy our freedoms we have today. Does that mean I have to honor the symbol of our country or should I instead honor them as individuals, I say the latter.
I personally haven't said the pledge of allegiance (in any form) since I was 11 years old. Since then I have refused to stand nor repeat the words. I haven't stood for the national anthem since I was in the military.
Saluting the flag, saying pledges, singing songs, are to me at least a form of blind patriotism, "love your country no matter what". They are powerful mind warping political tools used to force compliance. I can show respect to great people of the past and present without such drudgery.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 12:39:15 [Permalink]
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| For the most part, agree with your stance, but do have 'mixed' feelings, considering 'sports figures' being default 'role models' today. Still, she is making her voice count, and not without "grief." Dunno, what the "confrontation" with the Vietnam vet was supposed to show. Guess it is generally assumed, that if you are against a war, you are defacto against the military. Don't agree of course, being ex-military, know that the 'Military' is, well, us. Honor and admire our guys in the service of protecting our way of life, and lives, at the risk to their own. They are, what is the best of us, the most precious coinage of our nation, and for that very reason, will always protest squandering them on some misguilded adventure, without clear and compelling reasons. The Military's role, is not to debate or question, but to obey and serve, and our guys continue to fulfill the task extremely well. Thus far, Bush's obsession with Iraq, hasn't reached that standard for me. My daughter being in Kuwait at this moment, doesn't allow me much objective tolerance on the subject, admit, however. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:52:25 [Permalink]
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It's funny, but I just wrote about sort-of this very subject over on the SDMB.
By exercising her Constutional rights with her protest (which only "disrespects" a symbol of America), she is actually showing the world that those people who died fighting for those rights didn't die in vain. In a country without the freedoms we have here, she might be fined or jailed or worse.
In my opinion, one of the best ways to be patriotic (not blindly) is to actually use the rights your country gives you. Here in the U.S., that includes criticizing the leadership when you think they're not doing a good job. Turning your back on a flag is, perhaps, one way of doing so.
It's really strange, but from what I've noticed, many of the folks who like to remind us of the people who've died to protect our rights would also be the first to strip those rights from us if they got the chance.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:42:59 [Permalink]
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This pisses me off to no end. She is exercising the very ideals that the flag should stand for. It's the people booing her that are "unAmerican".
The idea that one must pledge allegiance to the flag regardless of the current government and their practices is nothing more than Fascism. Blind obedience to the State.
Let's pledge allegiance to the rational and enlightened ideals of the Founding Fathers. To the ideals that all individuals deserve life and freedom. Not to some abstract symbol that is praised without thought. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:54:11 [Permalink]
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I think it's fine is she makes a statement of showing her disrespect for the country.
But I also think it's fine that the crowd shows what they think by booing her. They have as much right to express their opinions as she does. |
| Edited by - Slater on 02/28/2003 20:55:02 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:55:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
That have as much right to express their opinions as she does.
They certainly do. But they're being complete hypocrites by doing so. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 20:59:00 [Permalink]
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| Truely a matter of opinion of which is the hypocrite and why |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2003 : 23:57:07 [Permalink]
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Asking someone that disagrees to leave the country if they won't go along with government policies is utter hypocracy. $5 will get you $10 that many of these same self righteous flag wavers disagred with Clinton and if they followed their own advice they wouldn't have been there in the first place. Yeah, I call them hypocrites all right unless they always agree with the government no matter what party is in power no matter what. If they did that they would be just as if not more stupid than they already are. So a vet has the right to proclaim what a person can believe? What a sad country this would be if that were so.
When the Soviets left Russia I guess they moved to Washington, DC and took power...
Heil Stalin!
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 01:57:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Asking someone that disagrees to leave the country if they won't go along with government policies is utter hypocracy. @tomic
That's just about how I feel too. I never did understand that expression 'Love it OR leave it'. The whole point of our (USA) government is debate.
I've only heard a little bit about that sports person and what the protest was about on some talk radio shows. My understanding is that it's also about the 'rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer'. Which is nonsense. It's amazing how celebrities who aren't poor try to speak for people who are not their peers. If they don't want people to be poor tell the damn Democrats to stop supporting welfare programs. And tell the poor to get an education. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 04:20:57 [Permalink]
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Yes, in my opinion we all ought to turn our backs. What Bush is doing is criminal.
What Bush has done is criminal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/01/2003 07:05:42 |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 07:53:54 [Permalink]
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I cant really comment on respecting a flag, after being an independent nation for over 100 years now, we still have another nations flag incorporated into ours. That pisses me off. Time to get off mothers teat Australia....
Although the way our Prime Minister is sucking up Washington's arse at the moment, we might as well put the Stars and Stripes on our flag as well and declare ourselves the 51st state of America.
However, getting on the subject I found this article about the your flag and what it means to this guy.
Patriotism and the Flag |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 09:32:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake: My understanding is that it's also about the 'rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer'. Which is nonsense. It's amazing how celebrities who aren't poor try to speak for people who are not their peers. If they don't want people to be poor tell the damn Democrats to stop supporting welfare programs. And tell the poor to get an education.
Snake, could you come up with a few more cliches? I needed a good laugh this morning. Thanks. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 09:54:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It's funny, but I just wrote about sort-of this very subject over on the SDMB.
By exercising her Constutional rights with her protest (which only "disrespects" a symbol of America), she is actually showing the world that those people who died fighting for those rights didn't die in vain. In a country without the freedoms we have here, she might be fined or jailed or worse.
In my opinion, one of the best ways to be patriotic (not blindly) is to actually use the rights your country gives you. Here in the U.S., that includes criticizing the leadership when you think they're not doing a good job. Turning your back on a flag is, perhaps, one way of doing so.
It's really strange, but from what I've noticed, many of the folks who like to remind us of the people who've died to protect our rights would also be the first to strip those rights from us if they got the chance.
Ah yes, the SDMB: the good-old Straight Dope Message Board, one of the biggest in the Land. Say there, Dave W. Do you ever run into Duck Duck Goose over there? If so, please say "Hola!" to her from one of my co-workers who used to post on the SDMB as Sea Sorbust (--although since I did the typing for her, you might also say "Hi" from me, too: I posted over there under my very own name, Computer Org  ).
I suppose this missive may seem like a hijack of the thread, which is about the right to freely express one's self. I (--we: me, 'orbust, and a couple other of my co-workers--) all posted to the SDMB from a county public-library. So far as I can tell, the entire county library system has been BANNED by the SDMB. Hmmmmmm. Ah, yes. Only in the good olde FreeSpeaking U.S.A. could an organ of the FREE press enact such wide-sweeping censorship. 
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 12:07:06 [Permalink]
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| DDG is a fave poster of mine. How 'bout I just email her a link to this thread, so she can see your greetings for herself? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2003 : 12:29:53 [Permalink]
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Tx.  |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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