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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2003 : 08:34:09
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"This is terrorism at its absolute worst and there is no justification for it in any way" is what Colin Powell said about the attack in Saudi Arabia.
Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as, “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.”
As the title says, it seems like the pot is calling the kettle black.
History tells us that violence begets violence. The bombs have ceased to fall in Iraq, could this be the beginning of the repercussions we peaceniks were worried about?
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2003 : 09:15:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
"This is terrorism at its absolute worst and there is no justification for it in any way" is what Colin Powell said about the attack in Saudi Arabia.
Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as, “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.”
As the title says, it seems like the pot is calling the kettle black.
History tells us that violence begets violence. The bombs have ceased to fall in Iraq, could this be the beginning of the repercussions we peaceniks were worried about?
Uh-huh.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 09:23:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
"This is terrorism at its absolute worst and there is no justification for it in any way" is what Colin Powell said about the attack in Saudi Arabia.
Terrorism is defined in the dictionary as, ?The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.?
As the title says, it seems like the pot is calling the kettle black.
History tells us that violence begets violence. The bombs have ceased to fall in Iraq, could this be the beginning of the repercussions we peaceniks were worried about?
I would have to disagree here. The US wasn't trying to intimidate or coerce the Iraqi government. It was trying to eliminate it. That's war, not terrorism.
More like "the industrial oven calling the kettle black".
-- Henry |
- TW
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 11:48:36 [Permalink]
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The past dozen years have been a campaign of terror against the people of Iraq and this was just another chapter.
Nice picture of a pro-war demonstrator at http://www.mikemalloy.com
Not any more. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 05/19/2003 04:10:26 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2003 : 12:18:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would have to disagree here. The US wasn't trying to intimidate or coerce the Iraqi government. It was trying to eliminate it. That's war, not terrorism.
I have to disagree with this. The war was unlawful and the reasons given for the war were lies. I'd call the US action in Iraq terrorist based on the definition generally accepted.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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WindupAtheist
New Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 01:05:28 [Permalink]
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| Sure, Saddam doesn't get to cut any more tongues out, but that's bad because the war was ILLEGAL! Based on whose laws? The UN? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 03:30:11 [Permalink]
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According to the Constitution of the United States, the treaties that the United States signs are the law of the land. So we are talking about not only violations of international law, but U.S. law.
Whose law did Saddam Hussein break? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 05:29:04 [Permalink]
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Sorry to say, but all US wars since WW II have been illegal according to US law. Only the Congress has the power "[t]o constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress..." Nowhere are any of these powers eneumerated under the powers of the Executive in Section II of the US Constitution.
Seems to me that the Executive has usurped the majority of these powers. And, this isn't the first Administration to do so. It's just the most flagrant.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2003 : 09:20:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
quote:
I would have to disagree here. The US wasn't trying to intimidate or coerce the Iraqi government. It was trying to eliminate it. That's war, not terrorism.
I have to disagree with this. The war was unlawful and the reasons given for the war were lies. I'd call the US action in Iraq terrorist based on the definition generally accepted.
@tomic
Ooops. Didn't make myself clear. I say that unlawful war is worse than terrorism as it encompasses everything that is terrorism and then some (lots). This is in the same sense that genocide is worse than race-based murder of an individual. The scope is larger. IMO When you move from intimidating a government to overthrowing a government you move from terrorism to war.
-- Henry
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- TW
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2003 : 10:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tim: Seems to me that the Executive has usurped the majority of these powers. And, this isn't the first Administration to do so. It's just the most flagrant.
I don't see how this is any more flagrant than the war in Vietnam. Sheesh, that war lasted more then a decade and was never declared. (My comment should not be taken as an indorcment of this kind of action...) |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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WindupAtheist
New Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 00:58:23 [Permalink]
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Overthrowing a brutal regime which absolutely nobody can stick up for, while doing the best you can to avoid civilian deaths, is nothing like setting out specifically to blow up an apartment building. You can bullshit all day, but this is (and has been) blitheringly obvious to anyone who doesn't start from the premise of "I hate the government."
I swear if the Repubs weren't all fundies I'd so join. Idiotic shit like this is all anyone remotely on the left seems to have to offer anymore. Whining and bitching. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 03:00:39 [Permalink]
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If you rob a liquor store and the owner has a heart attack, you are guilty of murder. If you illegally attack another country you've supported throught their worst crimes and that you've attacked and weakened for twelve years then you are a conquering hero.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 04:15:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
don't see how this is any more flagrant than the war in Vietnam. Sheesh, that war lasted more then a decade and was never declared.
Got me there...
quote:
doing the best you can to avoid civilian deaths, is nothing like setting out specifically to blow up an apartment building.
Mostly I don't know of anyone that really believes that the US and British Armed Forces didn't act with the very best intent, and professionalism throughout this conflict. I think the criticism was aimed at the political leadership for cause.
quote:
You can bullshit all day, but this is (and has been) blitheringly obvious to anyone who doesn't start from the premise of "I hate the government."
Strong words. Whatever happened to the idea that one can dissent through love and respect for their gov't, and attempting to steer it down a more ethical path? Who is the real patriot?
quote:
Overthrowing a brutal regime which absolutely nobody can stick up for
I hope, Windup, that you are not saying that this is just cause for this last war. Quite a quagmire this becomes as national policy. Don't you think?
Look, Windup, you know as well as the rest of us that a sincere and benevolent respect for the safety and the human rights of the Iraqi people was as about as important as the mileage it got in the world press. So, don't act so damned indignant. It's all about national and corporate interest, and the retention of political power.
I'm not going to go as far as calling this war terrorism, but then again, there's no way I can condone it under US and intrernational law. quote:
the war was ILLEGAL! Based on whose laws? The UN?
Perhaps, you should try reading the US Constitution. But, then again, maybe I missed the part about attacking a foriegn nation because the leader is a bad boy. Was Saddam breaking our laws, or starting an insurrection within the US, or did his forces attack us when I wasn't looking?
Look man. No one's saying that Saddam didn't deserve to go down, but the UN made the rules, and the UN was responsible for enforcing them. As the Republicans were so eager to point out a decade ago, "We are not the world's police force." And, we have no more right to enforce our personal code of justice on the world than any other nation has to force theirs on us.
Arbitrarily choosing which bad boys we need to take down next is not a very consistent foriegn policy.
Edited because as usual I can neither type nor spell well enough to construct a coherent sentence |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 05/19/2003 04:19:50 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 06:58:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by WindupAtheist
Overthrowing a brutal regime which absolutely nobody can stick up for, while doing the best you can to avoid civilian deaths, is nothing like setting out specifically to blow up an apartment building. You can bullshit all day, but this is (and has been) blitheringly obvious to anyone who doesn't start from the premise of "I hate the government."
I swear if the Repubs weren't all fundies I'd so join. Idiotic shit like this is all anyone remotely on the left seems to have to offer anymore. Whining and bitching.
Here's the problem, most of the dissent is based on the original reason given for the invasion of Iraq. The reason that Bush swaggered up to the microphone to give was that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. He cited evidence which was proven to be outdated, incomplete, and, in the case of the Nigerian document, an outright fabrication.
Was the Iraqi regime violent and oppressive towards it's own people? Yes.
Was the Iraqi regime cooperating with UN inspectors? It had started to.
Did the Iraqis grant the kind of access that the US demanded under Bush 43? Yes.
Was it the US's job to depose Hussein based on the threat he posed to the US? Since he posed no immediate threat to the US and questionable future threat, no.
The Bush administration was adamant concerning the existance of WMD's. "If he will not disarm, we will disarm him," was GW's mantra.
And now for the grand total of WMD's and missiles of impermissable range found by the military inspectors.
WMD's:
Nada, zippo, squat. Several suspected weapons sites have been inspected and found devoid of biological and chemical weapons. "Mobile weapons facilities" were inspected by the UN before the war and were deemed to be mobile food testing labs.
Missiles of impermissible range:
2 alledged SCUD-B missiles were fired at US troops. Later turned out to be erroneous.
10 Al-Samoud II missiles captured. These were the missiles that were in the process of being destroyed when hostilities broke out.
I won't call what this administration did to be terrorism. I will call it the illegal invasion of a sovriegn nation. The US cannot claim self defense for this one. Iraq posed no immediate threat.
When US troops are used, I have enough respect for those troops to insist that the evidence that is used for them going to war is not comprimised.
Hear that bang in the distance? That's fourty years of US foreign policy. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2003 : 07:47:55 [Permalink]
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Our absence from the proximity of the cluster bombs and the sanctions is what gives us the luxury not to call it terrorism.
quote:
I'm not going to go as far as calling this war terrorism, but then again, there's no way I can condone it under US and intrernational law.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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owhufc
New Member
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 05:40:16 [Permalink]
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| Name two countries where the U.S has not run/aided terrorist groups and win a toaster. (terms and conditions apply) |
Blah Blah etc. |
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