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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2003 : 18:51:53
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Here's an interesting story. it seems the saving of Private Lynch wasn't all it seemed. Some new revelations have been made regarding her "rescue".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=22&u=/nm/20030523/ts_nm/iraq_lynch_dc_1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,956255,00.html
Several points really stuck out:
1. At the time of the rescue there was no Iraqi military presence at the hospital Lynch was being "held" at. The drama was all clever editing and lies about coming under fire when all they really did was walk in, grab her and leave.
2. The hospital tried to send Lynch to American forces in an ambulance but had to turn back when the ambulance came under fire. Wow, this one is both a war crime and makes the US look really stupid considering the passenger.
3. This all comes from foreign sources. How interesting that the US press won't even consider we were lied to.
This all makes me wonder if the doctor that walked to US soldiers with all the info and was later granted permission to come to the USA did so to keep him quiet about the truth. This is, of course, speculation but considering how fishy his story now sounds it isn't all that improbable.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2003 : 22:32:27 [Permalink]
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@tomic wrote:quote:
3. This all comes from foreign sources. How interesting that the US press won't even consider we were lied to.
I've got my pager set up to receive quick CNN blurbs three times a day. I got something about 12 hours ago to the effect of "Lynch's 'rescue' wasn't all that it was made out to be." Being at work and under pressure, I didn't follow up at cnn.com, nor do I have time to do so now.
Might be that CNN is just hopping on the bandwagon now that the story has broken, but it's not like the U.S. press is keeping entirely quiet about it.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JP
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2003 : 00:45:03 [Permalink]
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One of the most ominous things about this entire dog-wagging episode is that, according to the BBC report, it was not paragon of a free press, but an army camera crew that filmed the entire "rescue" operation. The video was fed to a base in Qatar, where it was edited for distribution, in real time, that is, while the operation was on going. The press just picked it up, and raved about our heroic soldiers, without asking a single question.
Also, according to the BBC, the press reported that Ms. Lynch had been both shot (several times) and stabbed by the Iraqi military. However, medical exams and interviews with the Iraqi doctors who treated her, show that our hero was neither shot nor stabbed, but suffered some broken bones when the car she was in rolled over.
The cynicism of our beloved leaders is truly awe inspiring. |
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PaulG
New Member
USA
1 Post |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 15:35:40 [Permalink]
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Since this is, after all, a skeptic site, allow me to throw out a few items that make me skeptical of this story:
(A note of personal bias, here: I am a former Special Forces soldier (Vietnam vintage). While the technology has improved somewhat, the basic tactics employed in this raid were no different than those utilized in "smash and grab" raids 35 years ago, which were principally used to either kill or capture high-level Viet Cong cadre. I do not expect to make an "argument from authority" here, but I invite you to compare my comments to the reported story and see which version makes your "bullshit meter" quiver the most.)
First the easy stuff. One of the major improvements between my time and now is in the miniaturization of electronics. This has allowed a video camera to be married to a night vision device, with the camera lens and night vision device being mounted on a soldier's helmet. Everything that he sees, the camera sees. The reason for using these setups is generally two-fold: it allows the mission commander (who is usually not present on the ground) to get real-time video of what is taking place so that he can do his job -- vectoring in aircraft, coordinating medivac and dustoff choppers and the like. The other reason is to make a video record for debriefing after the mission. There is ALWAYS a debriefing to obtain additional intelligence and to evaluate what went right and what went wrong with a mission. In this rescue case, the video was also made available to the media, just as gun camera film was shown so that we could all see what smart bombs we had. So, that's why there was video.
Second, the doctors involved claimed that the special ops guys were firing blanks. Blank cartridges do exist and are used extensively in training. But the cartridge casings (called "brass," because that's what they are made out of) look much different than ordinary brass. Instead of having a smooth circular hole in the end (for the bullet to fit into), blanks have a crimped end on them, with verticle crimpings all the way around the end of the brass. None of the reports that I've read recently indicated that the reporters found any such brass. There's more: blanks do not have sufficient exhaust gas to eject the brass from the weapon and cycle another round into the chamber. For this reason, the military utilizes a device called a BFD (for blank firing device) that is more or less cubicle in shape, colored red for easy identification, and which is screw-mounted over the end of the weapon's barrel. This is a very distinctive device. It would show up readily in the video. With this device in place, the blank's exhaust gas is forced to stay inside the barrel, which in turn gives it sufficient force to eject the cartridge and cycle another cartridge into the chamber, allowing the weapon to fire a second time, a third time, and so on. I went back and looked at the videos available on the Internet. I saw no indication that BFDs were mounted on the weapons seen in these videos. Finally, these devices are difficult to mount and remove. They take maybe two to three minutes to remove. It seems to me that a skeptic is forced to ask why a highly-trained special ops soldier would allow himself to be inserted behind enemy lines, into a hostile urban area, carrying a weapon that would not shoot real bullets and, moreover, would take two to three minutes to convert back into something useful should he become involved in a firefight. Firefights, for those of you who have never had the dubious pleasure of being involved in them, generally last a minute or two. After that, the losers are dead or wounded, neither of which makes their girls back home very happy. Weapons configured for blank ammunition would have guaranteed that those unhappy girls would have been Americans.
Now to tactics. When you are inserted on a smash and grab mission, there are usually several teams of varying sizes depending on their team missions. (For those of you who saw Black Hawk Down, remember that there were two teams: the Rangers, a relatively large group, and the Delta guys, a relatively small group.) The mission of one of the teams will be to secure the LZ (landing zone) and establish a perimeter around the area where the real work is being done. This involves shooting people and blowing things up -- quickly. Special operators are trained constantly to discriminate between non-combatants (those who do not have weapons and are not acting in a hostile or threatening way -- generally, this means running away from you, not toward you) and combatants and to neutralize (i.e., kill or inflict disabling wounds upon) the combatants. They do this by firing their weapons, including machine guns and rocket and grenade launchers (hence the explosions that the doctors heard), but they sure don't fire blanks. Now ask yourselves: Given what you observed about the way the U.S. military prosecuted the war in Iraq, is it more likely that the shooting and explosions that the doctors heard were the sounds of this team doing its job, as described above, or, as they alleged, the sound of blanks.
Next there are the teams that are tasked with penetrating the objective (the hospital in this case). They try to come from more than one direction (say, several entrances) and may also come in from the roof down. They are not slow and they are not quiet. They break things like door handles (complained of by the medical staff) rather than turn them to see if they are locked. They do not knock. They yell things like "clear" to indicate that there is no threat from a room, and "go, go, go" to notify the next fire team to move through their cleared area and to clear the next area. When you do something like this, you are buzzed on fear (don't let anyone tell you that operators are fearless, that's bullshit) and adrenalin like you would not believe because you don't know when a door is going to pop open and some gomer is going to try to spray you down with an AK-47 and ruin your whole day. To the doctors and staff at the hospital this was undoubtedly frightening, as they described (it's intended to be) and, upon reflection, sort of Hollywoodish, but to those involved, it would have been deadly earnest. The doctors said that "they could have just asked us where she was." When you're on a mission like this, you don't ask, you tell. You tell people to get down on the floor and keep quiet. Asking for information comes later, after the primary mission objective (the grab) is accomplished, and only if there is time. Again, ask yourselves, given what you know of how the U.S. military operates, do you think it more likely that they would have smashed their way in, taken positive control of the envronment, and spirited Pvt. Lynch out in the most expeditious manner possible, or that they would have staged this whole thing as a made-for-TV-video, as implied by these articles?
The medical staff also complained that Pvt. Lynch's specialized bed was ruined. Not hard to understand. On these raids, time is of the essence, and "smash and grab" is the rule. If it was quicker to get Pvt. Lynch out of the bed by breaking it or dismantling it, that's what they would do. If they decided that the best way to transport Pvt. Lynch to the medivac chopper was to forceably remove that portion of the bed that formed the matress and its immediate frame (quite likely in the case of a back injury), that's exactly what they would do. It's unfortunate, given the case load that that hospital had, but at least to me it's understandable. Ask yourself again, does this make sense in terms of the stated objectives of the action, or was it just gratuitous violence, and if the latter, why did the staff not complain of any other equipment being damaged? |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 18:57:42 [Permalink]
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The Pentagon has denied the BBC story, for what that's worth.
However, no matter whose version is closer to the truth, it's obvious that the Defense Department milked the story for all it was worth, and then some.
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-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 19:03:29 [Permalink]
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Very interesting, not being from a military background, this was a really good read.
A result of this war has been for many to become disenchanted with their government and media. All governments are guilty of lying to the people; the US government – and our own elected leaders - seem to thrive on it. So it is important, with so much more information available on line than ever before, that both sides of a story be investigated.
I often have to remind myself to try and be just as critical of news that supports my ideals, although sometimes it is hard to look past your beliefs.
Both sides of the political fence user the media to beef up their message, and we are lucky in this forum to get other views of the Iraq conflict and its aftermath. (Thanks Garrette).
I think it is important to be skeptical of everything you read, however the obvious right wing bias of world media, with the largest audience, will get their message through to those not so discerning about what they read or see on television. This event played right into the hands of the government in a time of war and I have no doubt that it was packaged as a wonderful bit of propaganda to keep spirits up in the “Homeland”. The fact that a girl that shouldn't have even been there was saved is fantastic. What is sad is that this young girl and her family have become pawns in a global game of chess which we can only watch from the grandstands. It is up to us to try and comprehend it as best we can.
With its power to preach to a seemingly apathetic population through the media, any government would be crazy to use it to their advantage.
This is the way morons get into power.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2003 : 04:17:00 [Permalink]
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Paul IG, welcome home!
On the one hand, you make a very good point. On the other, our current adminintration seems to be trying to turn lying into an art form, and propaganda abounds. And on the gripping hand, Pvt. Lynch is sensibly keeping her mouth shut, using amneasia (sp?) as the reason. Perhaps 'tis true; perhaps she was instructed to get amneasia; perhaps she's trying to hide (and who could blame her?). I dunno.
As for myself, I'm not reaching for conclusions until I have a little more info not tainted by the Pentagon, liberal frothing, or Fox News.
Again: Welcome Home, brother!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2003 : 16:59:24 [Permalink]
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Filthy, heres a good one about the the Whitehouse spin doctors...
White House insider cleans up Bush's image on film
quote:
Trapped on the other side of the country aboard Air Force One, the President has lost his cool: "If some tinhorn terrorist wants me, tell him to come and get me! I'll be at home! Waiting for the bastard!"
His Secret Service chief seems taken aback. "But Mr. President . . ."
The President brusquely interrupts him. "Try Commander-in-Chief. Whose present command is: Take the President home!"
Was this George W. Bush's moment of resolve on Sept. 11, 2001? Well, not exactly. Actually, the scene took place this month, on a Toronto sound stage.
The histrionics, filmed for a two-hour television movie to be broadcast this September, are as close as you can get to an official White House account of its activities at the outset of the war on terrorism.
How about the official report on Sept. 11th guys...not some made for TV documentary..... |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 06:41:27 [Permalink]
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What is a "Doe-eyed naif?" I've never heard the term and it sounds kinda wussy to me. Nothing at all like, "Dishonest, cowardly, little scumbag."
In any event, time will tell if this epic, and potential rip-off of the Canadian taxpayer, will sell.
Thanks for posting it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 15:36:31 [Permalink]
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Here is some more on this story:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030529/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_saving_jessica_lynch_7
Despite obvious exaggeration by Iraqis I still feel that this was basically one of the most dramatic hospital transfers in American history. But the Pentagon decided to exploit this before it took place and I personally doubt the whole "amnesia" story. At this point if the Pentagon tells me the sky is blue I am going outside to look. Jessica's amnesia is just a little bit too convenient if you ask me. Trading the Iraqi lawyers silence for asylum also seems like a good bet. I saw the press conference at jessica's home today and I was glad to see the press starting to ask questions and it was interesting that her family kept saying "We're not supposed to talk about it." That sounds pretty damn fishy combined with everything else. I'm just sad that it's Jessica and her family that have to deal with this since they almost certainly had nothing to do with all this. The press should go hound the right people.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 05:03:04 [Permalink]
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| NBC news tonight, but I'll be just arriving at work. Someone please tell me how Brokaw handles this one. The media now has an obvious lean to the right, but Brokaw is an even more obvious exception. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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