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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2003 : 15:32:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
quote:
Not all socialists advocate state control of industry, many, like myself would like to see some form of worker's control outside of state influence.
You are discribing Communism if you talk about state control. IMO, there's no choice as to what SOME socialists want or don't want, or SOME capitalists, or in any other philosophy, it is what it is. If one disagrees, he's not a true 'fill in the blank'.
[quote]
posted by Tim:
My problems begin with large corporations that essentially produce capital for shareholders with the labor of others. This allows too much power to be concentrated in the hands of a few.
I might not be in the stock market if not for the company I used to work for. I bought stock through payroll deduction. And now, many of the companies I own have benifits for their workers who are a part of the oganization not just employees.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2003 : 15:49:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NottyImp
It has happened ever since early agriculture allowed grain surpluses to be monopolised by a few powerful individuals in pre-industrial societies. That's why I'm not a capitalist.
Oh, yes, and I should have added, where would those workers be if not for companies who hire them?
Companies are not all bad. It's not only them aganist the workers.
Years ago I worked with someone who lived in an appartment, I wondered why she didn't buy a house. Something that one could call his own, do what he wanted, not have to pay rent every month an so on. She said, she did once own a house but would rather have someone else worry about the plumming, cutting the grass, etc., etc.
My 'room mate' started a business some years ago but got out of it fairly quickly because he didn't like all the paperwork, being in charge and responsible for so much. There are some people who just want to have a routine without complications.
They are free to move on whenever they feel like it because they have no loose ends to tie up.
Everyone pays in some way for their choice. A boss or company has more to do and more risk and therefore gets the bigger piece of the pie. A worker might not make as much but can quit anytime and go to a better job. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2003 : 21:02:20 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
Don't want to disagree with you...
Nonononononononono! This is the Skeptic Friends Network; if I'm spouting baloney, please tell me.quote:
...but I think true socialism is, that the neighbor who gets the other cow would have had to work for it. Not just be standing around and get it because someone else had two.
Okay, but who decides what's enough work? The state? I suppose someone who really knows socialism should speak up. 
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2003 : 22:34:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Snake wrote:quote:
Don't want to disagree with you...
Nonononononononono! This is the Skeptic Friends Network; if I'm spouting baloney, please tell me.
Thank you.
So many times drag out arguments start because of missunderstandings. Glad there are some who are willing to listen.
quote:
Okay, but who decides what's enough work? The state? I suppose someone who really knows socialism should speak up.
Socialism is easy, it's a philosophy that one can look up and read about. But as far as who decides on the work, that should be even easier.
You have an apple tree, I have some bricks. You need a fence, I can build it. We decide together, a meeting of the minds, a contract if you will, of what the price should be.
You give me 3 bags of apples for a 5 foot long fence. Your turn! |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2003 : 02:17:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, yes, and I should have added, where would those workers be if not for companies who hire them?
Companies are not all bad. It's not only them aganist the workers.
My comments were very general, and more aimed at the current world economic system than specific companies, or indeed individuals.
As to socialism, there are so many varieties, you can't really even begin to generalise about that. I think I'll start a thread. |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2003 : 10:20:13 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
Thank you.
So many times drag out arguments start because of missunderstandings. Glad there are some who are willing to listen.
I'd be a sorry skeptic indeed if I couldn't accept the idea that the tremendous generalization of socialism I learned 20 years ago from a high-school government teacher who used to be a stand-up comedian was wrong.
Of course, you won't find me here in the politics threads much, anyway, since it's a subject that's pretty low on my priorities list, especially since it's so opinionated and relies very little (it seems to me) on hard facts. Everyone's got their own ideas about how best to run a country, and can find "evidence" that they're correct all throughout history (I'm sure even fascist dictators get things right now and then). But there also seems to be plenty of "evidence" showing that a person's favorite theory of government is wrong or simply doesn't work in practice, too.
Given the evidence of many of the political threads here, which seem to quickly become three-way battles between the Republicans, Democrats, and Libertarians, there appear to be very few things politic about which one can be properly skeptical, especially when you toss in references from the Media (captialized on purpose). Dogma abounds. And when one of the primary forms of criticism appears to be casting doubt on the reliability of the sources, no matter who/what they are, I think the truly skeptical attitude about what's "true" in modern politics is "we'll just have to wait a couple hundred years to find out what really happened yesterday, and what it'll mean."
Even about what appears to be straight-forward stuff, like the posts that started this thread.
quote:
Socialism is easy, it's a philosophy that one can look up and read about. But as far as who decides on the work, that should be even easier.
You have an apple tree, I have some bricks. You need a fence, I can build it. We decide together, a meeting of the minds, a contract if you will, of what the price should be.
You give me 3 bags of apples for a 5 foot long fence. Your turn!
Well, how would that small example apply to socialism as a form of state government? After all, it's a good example of capitalism at work on a small scale, too. (Of course, the deal I would propose is for you to build my five-foot fence in return for access to as many apples from my tree as you want - you build the fence, you pick the apples, and I sit inside and surf the web all day. )
I get a very different idea of socialism just from looking the word up. Obviously, your example doesn't even touch, say, "a political theory advocating state ownership of industry." Neither, of course, does my old government teacher's cow analogy, which is more along the lines of "The general tendency is to regard as socialistic any interference undertaken by society on behalf of the poor..."
Perhaps NottyImp is right, and a whole thread is needed to hash out just what "socialism" means. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2003 : 01:47:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Perhaps NottyImp is right, and a whole thread is needed to hash out just what "socialism" means.
Realistically you'd need a whole bunch of threads on a whole bunch of message boards. And then you'd get pretty much nowhere at all in my opinion. Probably better to save it for the pub. |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2003 : 20:17:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NottyImp
quote:
Perhaps NottyImp is right, and a whole thread is needed to hash out just what "socialism" means.
Realistically you'd need a whole bunch of threads on a whole bunch of message boards. And then you'd get pretty much nowhere at all in my opinion. Probably better to save it for the pub.
Perhaps NottyImp is right....again!
There is only one Socialism, it's a philosophy, just as any other school of philosophy, it has a basic idea. There are however, interpretations, thoughts on what people think is meant by it, ideas people think they were taught about it and the confusion because of that and so on. Ah, there's the rub.
Gees! People, why don't you just go read H. G. Wells? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2003 : 20:28:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I get a very different idea of socialism just from looking the word up. Obviously, your example doesn't even touch, say, "a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
I don't believe that the 1st or most of the references on that web site are exactly correct.
And what you say above is Communism where the state owns the means of production. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2003 : 21:29:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I get a very different idea of socialism just from looking the word up. Obviously, your example doesn't even touch, say, "a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
I don't believe that the 1st or most of the references on that web site are exactly correct.
And what you say above is Communism where the state owns the means of production.
Arrrgh. I just lost 20 minutes of responding to this. Arrgh.
Limoncello and forums don't mix.
-- Henry |
- TW
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| Edited by - tw101356 on 06/23/2003 21:31:56 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 00:56:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Arrrgh. I just lost 20 minutes of responding to this. Arrgh.
Limoncello and forums don't mix.
-- Henry
Hope it doesn't take you another 20 to explain what you mean.
Please try again, I don't understand. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 07:25:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Arrrgh. I just lost 20 minutes of responding to this. Arrgh.
Limoncello and forums don't mix.
-- Henry
Hope it doesn't take you another 20 to explain what you mean.
Please try again, I don't understand.
Ingredients to Limoncello
15 lemons well scrubbed
1500 ml of 100 proof Vodka
4 cups sugar
5 cups water
Takes 20 - 80 days to make. Sits 10 - 40 days in a cool place. Then a syrup is made from the sugar and water and added to the cooled mixure with 750 ml of Vodka. It is then left to sit an additional 10 - 40 days. The concotion is then strained and chilled until served.
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Beverage/Limoncello.htm
Seems like an awful lot of effort to get blotto. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 15:41:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Arrrgh. I just lost 20 minutes of responding to this. Arrgh.
Limoncello and forums don't mix.
-- Henry
Hope it doesn't take you another 20 to explain what you mean.
Please try again, I don't understand.
Ingredients to Limoncello
15 lemons well scrubbed
1500 ml of 100 proof Vodka
4 cups sugar
5 cups water
Takes 20 - 80 days to make. Sits 10 - 40 days in a cool place. Then a syrup is made from the sugar and water and added to the cooled mixure with 750 ml of Vodka. It is then left to sit an additional 10 - 40 days. The concotion is then strained and chilled until served.
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Beverage/Limoncello.htm
Seems like an awful lot of effort to get blotto.
OH!
The 2 seconds it took me to read and respond to that usless information, I'll consider an awful lot of wasted time.
I don't drink, but thank you anyway.
Hum, well, I guess it's not a total waste, the mystery was solved. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2003 : 17:49:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Arrrgh. I just lost 20 minutes of responding to this. Arrgh.
Limoncello and forums don't mix.
-- Henry
Hope it doesn't take you another 20 to explain what you mean.
Please try again, I don't understand.
After 20 minutes of composing a response, I accidentally clicked the "Reset Fields" button when I meant to "Preview".
Anyway, I was pointing out that the term Socialism has so many different meanings that it becomes vague. It labels both the case where the 'revolution' (or whatever) gives the factory to the workers to operate, and the case where the workers all chip in to buy the factory. The difference in worker motivation is obvious, but in both cases the workers 'control the means of production', so both can be called Socialist.
Then I went on for a bit about party organization, or lack thereof. I've met a number of Libertarian candidates for state elections and was underwhelmed. They had no interest in building their party up from the bottom by running people for town and small city offices and showing what they could do in managing things locally.
Does anyone else see this kind of behavior from the local Libertarian, Green, Reform, Bull-Moose, or whatever parties? Kind of a "local office isn't worth the effort" attitude?
-- Henry
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- TW
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