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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2003 : 21:08:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, a friend of mine spent the better part of a year in a San Fransisco commune. Unfortunately not a good example of socialism, since they were more concerned about sex, but they were trying.
Yes. That was pretty much the way it was here. The difference may be the drop out mentality. The kibbutz was part of the economic system, not an escape from it.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 00:27:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Look, forget H.G. Wells and dictionary definitions for a moment. What's your defintion of socialism, Snake, in your own words?
"Wells resigned from the Fabian Society in 1908 but continued to be active in the campaign for socialism. His book A Modern Utopia expressed a desire for a society that was run and organised by humanistic and well-educated people. Wells, who was extremely critical of the role that privilege and hereditary factors in capitalist society and in his utopia, people gain power as a result of their intelligence and training."
That is from this website:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Jwells.htm
Actually I did go 1st thing to the Fabian site but couldn't find a decent text to explain in a short quote about Wells' ideas or socialism in general so I did a search and found the one above. Maybe that will help a bit.
What I was taught about Socialism is....
What someone contributes to society, he gets out. He is free to not do anything but then recieves nothing. There is no government. It's supposed to be everyone working together. Or in my way of thinking..Every man for himself.
Of course not having anyone in charge is an ideal, and that's why I was also told it probably could never work.
Socialism is the goal of Communism. But there has to be someone to organize things.....hence the leadership of the Party. I don't think their goal has ever been reached in reality either, where everyone gets a 'piece of the pie'. As I recall, that's what I was taught about Communism but you'd have to read Marx to be sure, since he's the authority.
I'm not very good at explaining things in consice words...that's why I could never be a teacher.
If I get around to it, I'll look up in some of my old philosophy text books from school how better to express what is meant. (don't hold your breath )
Hey! Who remembers things from years ago? I've got too much to think about now. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 00:37:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
that's what I was taught about Communism but you'd have to read Marx to be sure, since he's the authority.
Oh, I should have added that Socialism is more peaceful and to infiltrate but with Marx I believe, his idea was to overthrow those in power right away.
There really is so much more than what one can say in a few words. LOL, I guess that's why Karl had to write a whole book! |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 01:19:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
What someone contributes to society, he gets out. He is free to not do anything but then recieves nothing. There is no government. It's supposed to be everyone working together. Or in my way of thinking..Every man for himself.
Isn't that the same as the Autonomist Collective in Monty Pythons Holy Grail????? |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 02:49:23 [Permalink]
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Well, sure. Why do you doubt that?
quote:
And I guess the Michael Albert quote pertains to every U.S. election there's ever been, too. (/sarcasm)
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/26/2003 06:58:30 |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 05:19:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's supposed to be everyone working together. Or in my way of thinking..Every man for himself.
Snake, what you describe sounds more to me like "enlightened self-interest" than Socialism (but which one, of course?). Given the parlous state of the world we live in, it's actually not a bad place to start. Saying to someone "By helping others you help yourself" and giving examples of why that might be the case, at least gets people started on thinking that maybe it's not all just about the individual.
We live in a highly individualised ("atomised" is the buzzword I believe) world. I notice that my step-kids (at ages 14 and 16) have no focus beyond their immediate personal (educational and career) aspirations. A survey done in Britain not so long ago asked that age old question "What do you want to be when you grow up?" of a group 11 year olds - a high percentage responded "I want to be famous". No vocational careers like Doctor, Teacher etc. for them, then, just the "Me, me, me" they see of TV everyday.
I'm rambling here - but I think Socialism goes beyond this and tries to see collective good as an end in itself that is worth striving for. How you do that is open to much debate. You certainly don't do it as they did in the Soviet Union, or as they do it now in America and every other Western economy.
I'm also a fan of the more radical maxim (adopted by Bakunin, an anarchist):
"From each according to his (sic) abilities; to each according to his (sic) needs."
But that's another story. |
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 07:42:25 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote:quote:
Yes. That was pretty much the way it was here. The difference may be the drop out mentality. The kibbutz was part of the economic system, not an escape from it....
Well, the SF commune was running a software consultancy as a means of making money with which to buy food they couldn't grow, and to pay the mortgage, taxes, etc.. But they had plans. I saw the booklet they had describing their goals.
If I remember correctly, a certain number of people made up one 'cell'. Each cell produced some commodity or service, which could be traded with other cells, or, in the early stages, the outside world. (Note that since its inception in the late '60s, this particular commune never had more than one cell.) A certain number of cells made a 'group,' at which level they had local governance stuff going on. So-many groups made a whatchamacallit, so many whatchamacallits made a whoosit, etc., etc.. The organisational chart went up to the point where there could be over 5 billion people in the commune.
But, as I said, they were more interested in sex than making the whole idea work. They actually had "sleeping schedules" drawn up, showing who'd be sharing a bed with whom on any particular night. My friend got to the end of his probationary period, and had to choose between leaving the commune, or staying and having a vasectomy. How they expected to get to 5 billion people with a bunch of sterilized men running about, I couldn't say. I didn't read the whole booklet.
Gorgo wrote:quote:
Well, sure. Why do you doubt that?
Um, why shouldn't I doubt it (especially here on the SFN)? "I'm told" tells me you don't have an original source, and considering the times, I'd be willing to bet that the Madison quote is taken out of context, and he was probably making derisive comments about England's monarchy. Even if Madison was really talking about his ideal government, is it valid to extrapolate from a sample size of one to all of the other signers of the Declaration of Independence? And I also don't have Michael Albert here to verify that he was, indeed, talking about elections going back 200+ years (though I'd certainly agree that what he says appears to be true of elections in the past few of decades). What reason do I have to take your word for it?
And Snake, there does appear to be a difference between "every person for him/herself" and socialism. Here's a quote from that page on Wells you sent me to (thank you):quote:
Socialism is the preparation for that higher Anarchism; painfully, laboriously we mean to destroy false ideas of property and self, eliminate unjust laws and poisonous and hateful suggestions and prejudices, create a system of social right-dealing and a tradition of right-feeling and action. Socialism is the schoolroom of true and noble Anarchism, wherein by training and
restraint we shall make free men.
This is the Utopia he was talking about, that next step beyond socialism.
20 years ago, a friend of mine told me that every culture will go from capitalism, to communism, to socialism, and finally to a glorious anarchic utopia. I lost touch with him years before the break-up of the Soviet Union. I sometimes wonder how that event messed with his world-view.
And now, I'm also wondering, given the replicators and what-not which put the "means of production" into the hands of individuals, whether or not Star Trek's worlds should have been anarchic. My coworker here, who's a big fan, says the shows never really touched much on planetary governments, but he's under the impression that Earth's government in Star Trek is "more like communism without the police state."
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 08:31:20 [Permalink]
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Well, I have no need to prove anything, that wasn't my intent, this isn't science class, it's a discussion board. You'd need to do a lot of reading to satisfy your own curiosity, if you had as much curiosity as you have sarcasm. I was quoting one source, in fact, I was careful not to say I was quoting a source, I was quoting from faulty memory. I do have the citation somewhere, if you're really interested I could look it up. Others said similar things. Wasn't it John Jay that said something to the effect that the people who own the country should run it? No reason to think things would run any other way, that's why I asked where you see anything to the contrary.
quote:
"I'm told" tells me you don't have an original source, and considering the times, I'd be willing to bet that the Madison quote is taken out of context, and he was probably making derisive comments about England's monarchy. Even if Madison was really talking about his ideal government, is it valid to extrapolate from a sample size of one to all of the other signers of the Declaration of Independence? And I also don't have Michael Albert here to verify that he was, indeed, talking about elections going back 200+ years (though I'd certainly agree that what he says appears to be true of elections in the past few of decades). What reason do I have to take your word for it?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 11:27:42 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote:quote:
Well, I have no need to prove anything, that wasn't my intent, this isn't science class, it's a discussion board.
I would expect to find facts about Madison in a history class, and not science, but maybe that's just me. And I see that I'm wasting my time trying to learn something through discussion. I'm probably just mistaken about the aims of this discussion board.quote:
Wasn't it John Jay that said something to the effect that the people who own the country should run it? No reason to think things would run any other way, that's why I asked where you see anything to the contrary.
I see at least a few people out there, who "own" large bits of the country, fervently denying that they're trying to run it. If they are, in fact, running the country, I'm suprised that things like the EPA even exist. |
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Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 11:49:32 [Permalink]
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| Are you saying wealthy people don't want any clean air? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 12:32:13 [Permalink]
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Apparently you, Gorgo, don't see the contradictions implicit in what you're saying. But, as you said, this ain't science class, and I guess I have nothing to prove to you, either. I'm sure you can find the problems for yourself, if you've got as much curiosity as you do unresponsiveness.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 12:54:37 [Permalink]
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No. You have nothing to prove to me, not sure why you thought you did but I'm glad to let you off the hook.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Apparently you, Gorgo, don't see the contradictions implicit in what you're saying. But, as you said, this ain't science class, and I guess I have nothing to prove to you, either. I'm sure you can find the problems for yourself, if you've got as much curiosity as you do unresponsiveness.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 17:36:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And Snake, there does appear to be a difference between "every person for him/herself" and socialism. Here's a quote from that page on Wells you sent me to (thank you):quote:
Socialism is the preparation for that higher Anarchism; painfully, laboriously we mean to destroy false ideas of property and self, eliminate unjust laws and poisonous and hateful suggestions and prejudices, create a system of social right-dealing and a tradition of right-feeling and action. Socialism is the schoolroom of true and noble Anarchism, wherein by training and
restraint we shall make free men.
This is the Utopia he was talking about, that next step beyond socialism.
20 years ago, a friend of mine told me that every culture will go from capitalism, to communism, to socialism, and finally to a glorious anarchic utopia. I lost touch with him years before the break-up of the Soviet Union. I sometimes wonder how that event messed with his world-view.
Wish you could find your friend, would be interesting to know what he thinks now. (Have you thought of the Internet? to find him)
Anarchism, being No government, is what I said Socialism is, therefore I guess one could say they are synonyms.
If there is no one to govern, one could say..it's every man for himself, in that there's no one body to agree on a system.
As for that quote above. Who is to decide on the 'social right-dealing' and 'right-feeling'? Perhaps that's why it wouldn't work in reality....no one to be in charge.....no one consenus! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 17:52:33 [Permalink]
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| Actually, anarchism, according to the anarchists I know, is the rejection of illegitimate authority. Legitimate authority is acceptable. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2003 : 19:16:34 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote:quote:
No. You have nothing to prove to me, not sure why you thought you did but I'm glad to let you off the hook.
Sigh.
Okay, let's recap. You said,quote:
There is no question that the U.S. system was built with the goal of making certain that those who have get more at the expense of those that have not.
That seems to me to be a clear statement of fact, which I called into question. You appeared to attempt to validate that statement withquote:
From before it's inception, of course. I'm told that James Madison's idea of government was to "protect the minority of the opulent from the majority."
along with the quote from Albert. And when I questioned those statements, you asked me why I would doubt them.
Now, when I post on a web site called the "Skeptic Friends Network," in a forum which is part of "Our Skeptic Forums," I would expect to be challenged by other skeptics when I make a statement of fact which is, or even appears to be, balderdash (see a post of mine in the thread which spawned this one). And I would expect myself to be able to support statements of fact which I make, either with online references or citations. I would also expect people to become irate, and even sarcastic, if I were to make such a statement, and then refuse to support it, by either suggesting that others support my position for me, or by saying "I have no need to prove anything."
You do have something to prove to me, if you care at all about what I, your Web-community neighbor here, think about your ability to carry on a skeptical discussion with a certain level of common, skeptical, courtesy.
But I don't suspect you care one little bit. Why should you? I'm nobody. So perhaps you don't share those expectations, either of other people or of yourself (to do the former without the latter would be hypocritical, after all). That's fine by me. I simply won't expect such behaviour from you in the future. Just as I no longer expect it from Darwin Alogos, welshdean, Creation88, or Slater, just to name a few.
Now, I could also be horrendously mistaken about the purpose of this discussion board. Maybe it's just a place for skeptics to get together and let their hair down, and not necessarily be skeptical. If so, perhaps someone who's actually a moderator could let me know, and I will gladly apologize for my bad assumptions. And let jmcginn know, too, before he makes the mistake of telling any more people what this being a 'skeptical' site means.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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