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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2003 : 18:33:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
quote:
Originally posted by rickm
If god did not want us to eat cows, he would not have made them out of meat.
lol
Or........he would have made them taste like celery or god forbid..... Snake's tomatoes!!
 That's IT, you are not getting any of MY tomatoes.
quote:
Why do veggies have vegetables shaped into meat dishes, ie sausages, cutlets, steaks etc. I'm no veggie, but I ain't never seen or ordered my steak cooked to look like a cauliflower!
So funny you should ask. I've been wondering that for years.
Many years ago when I found out one could order certain kinds of meals on an airplane I called and said I wanted ....what else, Vegetarian.
So for a month I dreamed of eating a fresh whole apple, a good salad, grapes, or whatever. When the day arived and the food was served, I could have cried. They as you said, made it look like a hambuger or meatloaf.....or who knows what? It was horrid. I thought right then and there, what the hell.....why do they think I'd take the time to special order something (called vegetarian) only to have them turn it into something that looks like what I didn't want in the 1st place? DUH!
Oh the logic of the business world! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 19:50:27 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
Because, he with all his 'self awareness' he should be above having to act superior to someone who is not as aware.
Clearly this is nothing but my opinion, but given the incredible facilities our brains and hands give us, we don't need to act superior, we are superior, in many ways.quote:
But if humans kill rats because they have disease that can kill man then we will have too many humans on Earth. It will be out of balance. Man needs to die. Or at least not take over everything everywhere on Earth.....or anywhere.
"Too many humans" generally means that humans will die as a result of overpopulation. That's selection for you, the driving force behind evolution. In life - human or otherwise - there has always been misery of one form or another. Overcrowding will simply be a different form of misery. I think it's bound to happen, and to swing this back around towards where the topic came from, it's bound to happen whether or not PETA gets its way. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 22:40:05 [Permalink]
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| PETA is psycho anyways. If you have seen some of the quotes from their leading people, its kinda creepy. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 23:34:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
PETA is psycho anyways. If you have seen some of the quotes from their leading people, its kinda creepy.
No they are not.
They are missunderstood.
The few times I've heard a spokesman on radio shows the host generaly dwells on one phrase and doesn't give PETA a chance to make clear what their point is.
Ok, yes, there are a few radical views and people connected with the group but I think it's a way to get attention for the cause and the other 1/2 believe so strongly about helping animals that's just how they feel. I do think if one overlooks those individuls or ideas the basic idea of helping other animals is not a bad thing.
And like anything else, just because one persons idea doesn't conform to yours doesn't mean it's wrong. There are many levels and ways to go about doing or believing in something, it isn't just black and white, one way or the other. |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 15:29:49 [Permalink]
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| I heard PETA is trying to sue KFC for mistreatment of its chickens. So they arn't free range, grain fed after all........that Colonel Sanders was full of shit. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 16:45:32 [Permalink]
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Snake, the problem I have with PETA is not most of its members. Most people who are casual members generally want to help animals where they can, but are not extremists or radicals. However, there are quite a few radical ideaoligists in the upper ranks.
Some choice quotes to make a point.
---"Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause."
-Alex Pacheco, Director, PeTA
---"If the death of one rat cured all diseases, it wouldn't make any difference to me."
-- Chris De Rose, Director, Last Chance for Animals
---"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA
---"I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PeTA, National Animal Rights Convention '97, June 27, 1997
---“PETA Vice President Bruce Friedrich. "I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks that fund them exploded tomorrow,”
---"Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective. We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works."
- Ingrid Newkirk, President and Co-Founder of PETA
PETA has also been known to fund ALF ( animal liberation front), who are known to advocate actions which clearly violate the law.
AlF makes PETA look tame .
---------------quote-----------------------------------------------
"What is the Animal Liberation Front?
The Animal Liberation Front (A.L.F.) carries out direct action against animal abuse in the form of rescuing animals and causing financial loss to animal exploiters, usually through the damage and destruction of property.
The A.L.F.'s short-term aim is to save as many animals as possible and directly disrupt the practice of animal abuse. Their long term aim is to end all animal suffering by forcing animal abuse companies out of business.
It is a non-violent campaign, activists taking all precautions not to harm any animal (human or otherwise).
Because A.L.F. actions are against the law, activists work anonymously, either in small groups or individually, and do not have any centralized organization or co-ordination.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I am not agaist trying to do the human thing, where possible, but I also thing it is wrong to go to the opposite extreme. I also thing there is nothing wrong with humans putting the welfare of humans first, wether it be animal testing for medical research or killing cows for food and clothing. When "animal supports" resort to terrorism to try and push their radical ideology on the general populace, they are no better than any other terrorist. I would gladly support PETA if the people pulling its strings and pocketbooks didn't have such a radical agenda.
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2003 : 20:39:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Now, for the cotton: I do have trouble picking my tomatos off the vine, knowing I raised them from little seeds only to be devoured. But that's when it comes down to survival of the fittest. If they aren't smart enough to evolve enough to grow feet, is that my problem?
No need for feet. They evolved nice juicy attractive fruit which can be devoured by animals (including people), containing seeds which can pass through the digestive tract and remain viable. When you eat them, you're participating in their life cycle.
Pretty clever for dumb plants.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 07:08:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
Snake, the problem I have with PETA is not most of its members. Most people who are casual members generally want to help animals where they can, but are not extremists or radicals. However, there are quite a few radical ideaoligists in the upper ranks.
There are also some nutcases in the lower ranks. (Warning: Swallow beverage and remove any cats from lap before reading this.)
http://www.mentallyincontinent.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=155
-- Henry |
- TW
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 00:23:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
(Warning: Swallow beverage and remove any cats from lap before reading this.)
http://www.mentallyincontinent.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=155
-- Henry
I'm not sure why you put that warning there.
And BTW, the Cow was right.
She just got a little overly excited in trying to explain her point. Many people do on every side of an issue they belive in strongly. Just be glad she wasn't a xian who likes to kill abortion doctors. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 00:51:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
Some choice quotes to make a point.
I happen to agree with some of those oppinions.
And as I said, when quotes like that are said on radio shows the host doesn't give the person a chance to explain. Perhaps the ones here were taken out of context or expressed in an outrageous way to make a point.
quote:
"What is the Animal Liberation Front?
I don't condone breaking the law or destroying others property. But then during the American civil war slaves wouldn't have been freed if not for brave people who dared to go against the laws of that time too. That are examples throughout history where action must be taken to help those who cannot help themselves or to change unbareable situations, if laws have to be stepped on then so be it.
quote:
I also thing there is nothing wrong with humans putting the welfare of humans first,
Why? What's so great about humans that makes them better or worthy of living more than any other animal?
After debating anti-PETA people on line I've found that it seems that the ones opposed to putting all animals equal to Man are the religious who think Man was put here to control beasts of burden and that Man should rule the Earth. That's just not true. Man is a part of nature and should fit in with it not control it.
Down with dams.
quote:
When "animal supports" resort to terrorism to try and push their radical ideology on the general populace, they are no better than any other terrorist. I would gladly support PETA if the people pulling its strings and pocketbooks didn't have such a radical agenda.
That is correct, no group should 'push' their ideals on another. I don't see PETA being as radical as some xian groups, they are trying to make people aware.
Just as with politics, people want to complain when they don't vote.
I suggest you DO get involved so you'd have a voice in what PETA does. Don't let the radicals take over the group. Or get involved is other animal welfare groups and save animals so PETA won't have anything to protest. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 02:25:02 [Permalink]
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Does this thread seem a bit bizaare to anyone else. We go from self aware astrological bodies to the morality of members of a far left animal rights group. Hmm…
I would like to remind some folks of a couple of things. We are, probably, the only species on this planet at this moment capable of large scale control of our environment, and as such, capable of directing our own evolution, (at least to some degree much greater than all other known species). This acquired intelligence is partially attributable to the consumption of large quantities of protein found in animal flesh. Our brain requires protein to evolve further, and our brain is the single most important tool to our survival as a species.
So…Bring on da meat!
Also, survival is not a game of fair play, and lets be nice to the critters further down in the food chain. If we need to kill a small mammal slowly and pitilessly in a snare to survive and guarantee viable offspring, I think there are few here that will choose the alternative.
Plus, there is little argument about the idea that a fish will feel the pain of the hook, but because of the state of the fish's nervous system, I will need convincing that the fish actually reacts or ‘feels' in a way similar to what we consider suffering.
If we ever arrive at a technological level which will allow us to protect all species from the harsh reality of survival on this planet, then by all means, let's be nice and fair to all living things. However, I wonder what consequences this would have on real world evolution.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 19:25:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
I'm not sure why you put that warning there.
Other people I've sent that URL to said I should have warned them
that they'd find it riotously funny.
quote:
And BTW, the Cow was right.
In her statements, her actions, or in both?
This statement, for example, is wrong.
quote:
The woman in the cow suit said
Red meat does not get digested by the body the way vegetable matter does! It sits in your stomach for days, spoiling from the heat of your body before it is broken down!
Meat doesn't sit in your stomach for days and doesn't 'spoil' from the heat. It's digested by enzymes in the same fashion as vegetable proteins.
http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/digest/pubs/digesyst/newdiges.htm
We certainly eat way too much meat in this country and could safely cut overall consumption by 90%, but moderate amounts of lean meat are no worse for us than the same amount of vegetable protein.
-- Henry
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- TW
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 20:06:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
.
And BTW, the Cow was right.
She just got a little overly excited in trying to explain her point. Many people do on every side of an issue they belive in strongly. Just be glad she wasn't a xian who likes to kill abortion doctors.
Wow, she was right? Even though most of her quotes were nonsensical and clearly contradicted known facts.
quote:
“Greetings! You people should be ashamed of yourselves! Your dinner was once a living, breathing organism! How can you dine on the flesh of your fellow mammal this way?!?” -cow
Wow, you mean that people are eating something that was once alive? You mean like almost every other living organism on the planet? Who cares if it breaths. Plants respirate. And how are mammals our fellows? Just because we shared a few realitive genetic ancestor species a few hundred millions years ago or further back, its not like we are family.
quote:
“This is utterly despicable! It is gross that you would eat animals this way! We should live in harmony with the other life forms on this planet! Meat is Murder!” -Cow
Live in harmony with other life forms? What planet does she live on? EVERYTHING EATS SOMETHING ELSE! Nature isn't the lamb laying down with the lion, its the lamb being eaten by the lion. I fully understand that meat is murder, but that is a part of life.
I will directly argue from the postion of man only being another animal on this planet. Why do other species get slack for eating what they eat, but humans have to live but some other standard. The human body is designed to be omnivoric. We eat both plants and meat. Human development depends on the intake of ready proteins and such found in meat. To pretend otherwise is a lie. Your body breaks it down and absorbs what it needs.
Ironically, the human body is not designed to eat most plants. We can't break down or absorb cellulose, a basic componet of most plant life. As such, we break down and absorb only a small fraction of the calories and nutriets of most plant life. However, cows, which are vegetarians, have plenty of stomachs and the right biochemistry to break down plant life. They eat plants, we eat them. Seems natural to me.
The rest of the quotes are mostly just poor argumentation, I will ignore it as not being representitive of other opinions. However, I fail to see how she made any points other than "meat is murder", which it is. So is eating vegatables, if you want to argue that all life is sacred. However, her position that eating meat entail murder at some point doesnt invalidate the fact that eating meat is a natural part of life.
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 20:18:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm
Some choice quotes to make a point.
I happen to agree with some of those oppinions.
And as I said, when quotes like that are said on radio shows the host doesn't give the person a chance to explain. Perhaps the ones here were taken out of context or expressed in an outrageous way to make a point.
quote:
"What is the Animal Liberation Front?
I don't condone breaking the law or destroying others property. But then during the American civil war slaves wouldn't have been freed if not for brave people who dared to go against the laws of that time too. That are examples throughout history where action must be taken to help those who cannot help themselves or to change unbareable situations, if laws have to be stepped on then so be it.
quote:
I also thing there is nothing wrong with humans putting the welfare of humans first,
Why? What's so great about humans that makes them better or worthy of living more than any other animal?
After debating anti-PETA people on line I've found that it seems that the ones opposed to putting all animals equal to Man are the religious who think Man was put here to control beasts of burden and that Man should rule the Earth. That's just not true. Man is a part of nature and should fit in with it not control it.
Down with dams.
quote:
When "animal supports" resort to terrorism to try and push their radical ideology on the general populace, they are no better than any other terrorist. I would gladly support PETA if the people pulling its strings and pocketbooks didn't have such a radical agenda.
That is correct, no group should 'push' their ideals on another. I don't see PETA being as radical as some xian groups, they are trying to make people aware.
Just as with politics, people want to complain when they don't vote.
I suggest you DO get involved so you'd have a voice in what PETA does. Don't let the radicals take over the group. Or get involved is other animal welfare groups and save animals so PETA won't have anything to protest.
1.)Which quotes do you agree with. I am interested in hearing what your position is, and why you believe it.
2.)I fully agree that the animals and plants were not given to us by some deity. I also agree that we are part of nature. However, that includes us following our natural eating habits , which most defintely includes eating meat. In fact, planting crops and such is a fairly modern invention by evolutionary stadards. Humans naturally eath fruits, nuts, and meat.
3.) Why should I join an organization that uses most of its money for politics, not actually helping animals. Why should I support and organization with which I disagree with ideologically?
"Meat is murder......
and murder tastes good!" - Darwin Storm
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wonkavision
New Member
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2003 : 17:13:41 [Permalink]
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| Vegetables are what food eats. Choosing to not eat life forms more closely related to us is very admirable and all (although somewhat arbitrary as has been pointed out countless times in this thread), but when animal rights activists start claiming that human physiology has not evolved to eat meat, then they have crossed the line into offering false facts in order to support their cause. Any person and especially any orginization that does this becomes dubious, and they must be vociferously exposed. They would do better to stick to the facts, so that their argument will remain viable. They are doing themselves a diservice. The scientific fact is that we are omniverous animals, and scavengers by nature. In fact true herbivores are the rarity in nature. Many animals that we think of as herbiverous will supplement their diet with meat. Also scavenging is far more prevelant in the animal kingdom than was earlier believed. An animal's main objectives are to survive and procreate, and, in times of scarcity, alternate food sources will be sought. And scarcity doesn't even have to necessarily mean famine. If a requisite nutrient is momentarily not availabe from an animals normal diet, many will supplement. If a Peta member were involved in a motorcycle accident, do you think they may wish they had chosen leather over cotten, or would they bear their painful and scarring wounds with stoicism? Perhaps Peta members shouldn't ride motorcycles. |
So shy a good deed in such a weary world... |
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