|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2003 : 22:05:38
|
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong. Brain waves and a heart beat before the age of three months. It's the same thing as saying that someone on life support is dead because there not breathing for themselves. This seems so obvious to me, babys aren't always a thing that come at your convienience. Most people on here think of me as an inconvienience. But I hope that none of you would shoot me if you saw me, because I didn't really fit in to your schedule right now. (and i don't want any smart comments about how you really would) Did everyone here know that a woman who has an abortion, is more than twice as likely to commit suicide over the course of her life. If you have your tonsils out your certainly not depressed about that a year later. That right there shows you that theres more to it than "a blob of tissue".
I'm sick of people saying it's a "womans right to choose". Timothy Mcvea<spelled that wrong. But you wouldn't let him run free after the Oklahoma City Bombing, because you didn't want to interfere with his "right to choose". The same goes for Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussain. O sure Sadam's an evil dictator but we shouldn't interfere with his "right to choose".
I'm also sick of being called "anti-abortionist". pro-choice people call themselves "pro-choice". We call ourselves "pro-life". But people have to put a negative spin on us, so we are "Anti-Abortionist's". It sounds alot more negative. So even if you will always be pro-choice, please at least be fair and call us what we actually are. And thats Pro-Life.
|
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2003 : 05:03:59 [Permalink]
|
Do you agree with abortion if a woman becomes pregnant because she has been raped???
A teenage girl not yet old enough to take responsibility for another human life?
What if the child is born ans the mother wants no part of him/her, the child then does not get the important mother-child bonding and starts life behind the eight ball.
What if it has been determined that the child would have a disability that would prevenr him/her from having a full life.
Abortion should not be used as a form of contraception, however each case must be looked at individually before a conclusion can be made.
|
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
 |
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 05:16:05 [Permalink]
|
Society has to draw the line somewhere. There are those who wouldn't want us to use contraception because they think it's immoral. I am told, haven't verified it, that a long time ago, the Catholic Church allowed the killing of babies after they were born as long as they were not baptized.
Drawing the line at birth, or at least the second trimester, gives women more power to choose what happens with their own bodies.
You want to end abortion? Work to improve contraception, education, and health care and stop extreme right wing fundies like Bush from using all our money to murder and torture people (after they're born) in other countries. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 06:46:08 [Permalink]
|
Do all of you righteous religious Stepford right-sters drink from the same water supply? Because you are frighteningly similar (read: tiresome) in your beliefs and arguments.
The abortion debate is older than dirt and not even worth my time.
However, if you want a thoughtful, intelligent look at it, Carl Sagan (my hero) offers this:
http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml
His main point is that a beating heart and other biological characteristics do not make a fetus a human. Animals also respirate, have beating hearts, and respond to stimuli--and we kill them by the billions. So to ascribe a 'right to life' (I can't even type this without rolling my eyes) to a being based on those characteristics is wrong.
Sagan argues that a living creature becomes human, essentially, when it's able to think. I'm reducing his argument and his eloquence here in summary, but that's basically it.
Further, C88, if you were really 'pro-life', you'd be so completely, right? You'd be a pacifist. You'd be anti-capital punishment. You'd be a vegan. And you'd cough up your time, tax collars, and charitable contributions to cherish and nurture the lives that would result from banning abortion.
Right? |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 10:45:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
creation88:
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong.
Well, there is really no place to go with this. You feel that all abortion is wrong. So that is pretty much that.
Perhaps you can explain how an egg at the point of conception counts as a baby? That might be interesting....
Did this come up because the state of Florida just performed a late term abortion on Paul Hill? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 00:31:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong. Brain waves and a heart beat before the age of three months
There is noting wrong with terminating a thing that isn't born yet.
I would like to know why thousands of dogs and cats and other healthy animals are killed every day. Living things that have been born already. That's more horrid.
Stop killing them 1st then we can talk about a stupid human that's just a bunch of cells.
PS. anyone want a lovely little rabbit who has been living in my yard the past week? I won't take him to the city shelter because I don't want anything terrible to happen to him but he can't stay in my yard much longer. I will care for him as long as I can. Email me, PLEASE.
BTW, if it was human I wouldn't be as sympathetic. Bunnys are cute, humans are ulgy....and there's too many of them. |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 00:39:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Further, C88, if you were really 'pro-life', you'd be so completely, right? You'd be a pacifist. You'd be anti-capital punishment. You'd be a vegan.
Right?
Really cool Renae. I posted my response before reading yours. You are exactly right. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 00:57:54 [Permalink]
|
Renae wrote:quote:
...Further, C88, if you were really 'pro-life', you'd be so completely, right? ... You'd be a vegan...
How utterly barbaric. Surely anyone who is really "pro-life" would have the utmost respect for our rooted-to-the-Earth brothers, and not eat them. Just because an eggplant doesn't appear to be alive doesn't mean it isn't. Far from it: they've got DNA just like you and me!
Those people who are truly "pro-life" don't even bathe, for fear of killing Streptococcus and E. coli. In fact, I don't understand how anyone who claims to be "pro-life" can use a computer, since the electricity it takes to run one kills things, either through pollution from the power plants or the manufacturing process of so-called "green" power sources, or through habitat distruction (most likely both).
Good grief, Creation88, how can you get out of bed in the morning? You might step on a poor, innocent, living bug and kill it! Heck, for the same reason, how can you get into bed?!?
|
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 17:59:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
How utterly barbaric. Surely anyone who is really "pro-life" would have the utmost respect for our rooted-to-the-Earth brothers, and not eat them. Just because an eggplant doesn't appear to be alive doesn't mean it isn't. Far from it: they've got DNA just like you and me!
BTW, don't get me mixed up with any pro life or pro choice people. I'm pro abortion, everyone should have at least one.
Plants were put on Earth to serve Man.
Ok, yeah sure we are all sponges, were sponges at one time but higher forms of animals grew out of it. So they (the sponges, left behind) loose. (well, maybe they don't think so, maybe they are happy being sponges)
But seriously, Man has a choice, he can decide to servive without hurting a life form that has feelings and can express pain.
quote:
Those people who are truly "pro-life" don't even bathe,
I don't bathe. Or at least as very little as possible. But not because of killing things. One main reason is because the tax on water is too high and I can't afford it.
Although on your point of killing something, if one is in danger he will react. Self defence is acceptable, isn't it? That's a law of nature!
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 19:17:34 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong.
No it's not wrong... God makes it happen all the time, but we call it miscarriage.
Actually, it's basic biology.
It happens when there is a malfunction in the development of the embryo, there is a mechanism to identify the malfunction, and initiate what's know as a spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage if you prefer...
If we can detect a malfunction that this mechanism has overlooked (genetic disorders for example) I feel it is our duty to step in and do natures work.
I can also see that some extreme social circumstances will prevent a child from getting a fully functional life.
quote:
Brain waves and a heart beat before the age of three months. It's the same thing as saying that someone on life support is dead because there not breathing for themselves.
I bet there are several Christian congregations that feel that life support is taking God's will out of God's hands. If a man is not breathing it's because God has taken his breath away, then we should not attempt to take it back.
As long as the embryo/foetus is in it's moms belly it's draining her of her resources, stealing nutrients from her in order to grow. It's life is unsustainable outside it's environment (the womb).
Any other life form with that description is called a Parasite.
Therefore I think it's up the woman to decide what to do about it.
quote:
This seems so obvious to me, babys aren't always a thing that come at your convienience.
I'm glad you realize that.
quote:
Did everyone here know that a woman who has an abortion, is more than twice as likely to commit suicide over the course of her life.
Really? That was news to me.
quote:
I'm sick of people saying it's a "womans right to choose". Timothy Mcvea<spelled that wrong. But you wouldn't let him run free after the Oklahoma City Bombing, because you didn't want to interfere with his "right to choose". The same goes for Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussain. O sure Sadam's an evil dictator but we shouldn't interfere with his "right to choose".
So you're actually saying that a woman having an abortion for any reason (teenager being raped) is just as bad as McVeigh, Bin Ladin, Saddam Hussain you mentioned above?
Honestly, what is you mental dysfunction?
Really, I'd like to know!
quote:
I'm also sick of being called "anti-abortionist". pro-choice people call themselves "pro-choice". We call ourselves "pro-life".
Well, since I've already concluded that an embryo is a parasite unless it is wanted by its carrier (read mother-to-be), taking it away will improve the woman's life by removing unwanted nutritional drain and restoring hormone balance, or to ensure that a potentially fatal pregnancy never come full term thus removing the threat to her health, the abortion will increase the potential for life.
So, I can rightfully claim that I'm pro-life by supporting a woman's right to decide if she will have an abortion or not.
quote:
But people have to put a negative spin on us, so we are "Anti-Abortionist's". It sounds alot more negative. So even if you will always be pro-choice, please at least be fair and call us what we actually are. And thats Pro-Life.
I have heard that there has been several incidents where pro-life people has committed acts of violence against doctors performing abortions.
Please tell me, do you support these acts of violence?
Edit: Correcting some grammar, spelling and wording. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/07/2003 19:30:59 |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 09:51:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
How hard is it to see, that abortion in any form is wrong. Brain waves and a heart beat before the age of three months. It's the same thing as saying that someone on life support is dead because there not breathing for themselves. This seems so obvious to me, babys aren't always a thing that come at your convienience. Most people on here think of me as an inconvienience. But I hope that none of you would shoot me if you saw me, because I didn't really fit in to your schedule right now. (and i don't want any smart comments about how you really would) Did everyone here know that a woman who has an abortion, is more than twice as likely to commit suicide over the course of her life. If you have your tonsils out your certainly not depressed about that a year later. That right there shows you that theres more to it than "a blob of tissue".
I'm sick of people saying it's a "womans right to choose". Timothy Mcvea<spelled that wrong. But you wouldn't let him run free after the Oklahoma City Bombing, because you didn't want to interfere with his "right to choose". The same goes for Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussain. O sure Sadam's an evil dictator but we shouldn't interfere with his "right to choose".
I'm also sick of being called "anti-abortionist". pro-choice people call themselves "pro-choice". We call ourselves "pro-life". But people have to put a negative spin on us, so we are "Anti-Abortionist's". It sounds alot more negative. So even if you will always be pro-choice, please at least be fair and call us what we actually are. And thats Pro-Life.
Now for yet another feeding for this troll.
If all abortions are made illegal, then even tubal pregnancies which SPELLS DEATH FOR BOTH THE MOTHER AND THE FETUS are illegal. You have killed two for one. Or pregnancies which endanger the lives of the mother. Again, two for one.
No voluntary abortions in the cases for rape or incest. You are a cruel bastard, aren't you? You would force some poor woman to give birth to her rapists child? From this statement, you obviously aren't female.
Holy shit, we must be using that eight pounds on top of our necks in direct opposition to the basic fundie extremist crap that gives us the Army of God and other terrorist organizations.
|
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:00:48 [Permalink]
|
I think it would be great if there was no need for abortion, because there were no unwanted pregnancies.
But I think we should go a little farther with this thought. I think we should allow retroactive abortions in some cases such as Benny Hinn.
Or in the case of some parents that I have seen in the news, after the baby is born we shoot the parents - sort of an inverse abortion. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 19:37:35 [Permalink]
|
C88 where is the line where life is alright to be stopped? For instance, say a guy asks for sex in the bar.(hey it happens all the time) The woman says NO....she stopped life from potentionally occuring. This heartless woman willingly stopped an innocent child from developing. So for all you women who say you are truely pro-life, give me a call.
Seriously, I agree with your premise C88.......there are a lot more people walking around that deserve to be aborted than unborn people.
|
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 21:02:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Fireballn
C88 where is the line where life is alright to be stopped? For instance, say a guy asks for sex in the bar.(hey it happens all the time) The woman says NO....she stopped life from potentionally occuring. This heartless woman willingly stopped an innocent child from developing.
No not at all. Because I'm not arguing that conception shouldn't be avoided if you can't handle it.(my own mother I know for a fact uses birth control) I am only against a conception happening and then being terminated.
quote:
Furshur:
I think it would be great if there was no need for abortion, because there were no unwanted pregnancies.
But I think we should go a little farther with this thought. I think we should allow retroactive abortions in some cases such as Benny Hinn.
Or in the case of some parents that I have seen in the news, after the baby is born we shoot the parents - sort of an inverse abortion
Your right. Somtimes I feel like doing that to Benyy Hin also. haha
quote:
Dr.Mabuse:
No it's not wrong... God makes it happen all the time, but we call it miscarriage
.
Yes it is wrong, because god does Not make abortion happen all the time. We do. A miscarriage is a extremly sad event, but it's natural. Abortion is not.
quote:
Well, since I've already concluded that an embryo is a parasite unless it is wanted by its carrier
Wow! I think you summed up everything that is wrong with abortion right there. A baby is a parasite unless.... the mother dicides she wants the baby????? What is it mind over matter? A pregnant woman is planning to have an abortion, but then decides not to. In that moment the baby has transformed for a parasite to.. a baby. Please explain that can't be what you really meant.
quote:
Snake:
I would like to know why thousands of dogs and cats and other healthy animals are killed every day. Living things that have been born already. That's more horrid.
Stop killing them 1st then we can talk about a stupid human that's just a bunch of cells.
Utterly ridiculous, If you would actualy READ the bible and stop pretending you know what it says, and judging me on that. Then you would know that Genesis 1:26 says, that humans rule above animals. Animals were put here to show God's beuty and creativity, and as "Barbaric" as it may sound to some of you, for us to eat. So no I would not have to be a Vegan, as some people have said, to be truly pro-life.
quote:
Kil:
Perhaps you can explain how an egg at the point of conception counts as a baby? That might be interesting....
Heart beat, brain waves, responds to mothers voice, responds to music.
Perhaps you could explain how it's not. That would be alot more interesting.
quote:
Gezzam:
Do you agree with abortion if a woman becomes pregnant because she has been raped???
A teenage girl not yet old enough to take responsibility for another human life?
What if the child is born ans the mother wants no part of him/her, the child then does not get the important mother-child bonding and starts life behind the eight ball.
What if it has been determined that the child would have a disability that would prevenr him/her from having a full life.
Abortion should not be used as a form of contraception, however each case must be looked at individually before a conclusion can be made.
Actually no. I agree with it under no circumstances. Many situations are DEEPLY saddening. But it does not change the fact that a baby's life is being taken away. Specificly...
If a woman is raped. Terrible situation bt does not give her the right to kill, thats right KILL a baby.
If a teenage girl gets pregnant. It is her fault for getting pregnant in the first place. And she should have to go through with the consiquences.
A baby born into an ignorant or even abbusive home. I would bet my right arm that, 999 out of 1000 kids even in abusive homes are glad there mothers did not abort them. They have every right to live, and make better lives for themselves than there parents gave them.
If a chhild is born and will not live long. How does that make us think.. well he's not gonna live real long anyway, so lets just take him out before he lives at all. Has anyone else but me noticed how happy a child with downs syndrome is???? Many happier than you or me.
Even if he does not live as long or can do less than me, he deserves to live as long as possible. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2003 : 22:02:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Kil:
Perhaps you can explain how an egg at the point of conception counts as a baby? That might be interesting....
creation88 :
Heart beat, brain waves, responds to mothers voice, responds to music.
Perhaps you could explain how it's not. That would be alot more interesting.
Nice try, but I asked first. Now this time, really, explain how an egg at the moment of conception counts as a baby? This time, don't try to duck the question with a question. I have very little patience for that kind of subterfuge. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2003 : 00:08:04 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Utterly ridiculous, If you would actualy READ the bible and stop pretending you know what it says, and judging me on that. Then you would know that Genesis 1:26 says, that humans rule above animals. Animals were put here to show God's beuty and creativity, and as "Barbaric" as it may sound to some of you, for us to eat. So no I would not have to be a Vegan, as some people have said, to be truly pro-life.
I'm tired and I need to get some sleep but this subject and gay rights are just about the two most important issues for me, NEXT to animal rights and rescue. So I must respond.
We seem to have a difference of opinion. And nothing is going to change either of our minds. But:
I've never read the bible and I don't know why you say I should. I don't know what it says and can not judge you by that. I prefer to make up my own mind and not let some made up story book guide what I do.
I think all animals are equal....Man being only one of many on this planet. Ok, go ahead and argue what I mean by equal, that's not the point though. You damn well know what I mean. Man has no right to pave over this earth with cement everywhere or round up other animal to live in zoos for his pleasure. Everything has a right to live in it's own habitat they way nature meant it to be. NATURE, NATURE....not god.
Man is wrong for infringing on other animals. Man should have more abortions because there are too many humans. Pretty soon there will be no wilderness left, only roads, buildings and people. That's sick!
Instead of reading the bible, why don't you watch the movies 'Soylent Green' or 'Silent Running'? |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
