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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2003 : 09:37:05
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I have spoken to many different kinds of Christians and it seems
that they all have the same goal, and worship the same god. The
same could be said for Islam and Judaism, as all three come from
the same source. In my opinion whatever takes place in the middle
is minor detail.
To say that one Religion, or denomination is better than another is without merit, as the differences are only in interpretation of
the same texts. It would be arrogant to claim that one group is more
enlightened, or with better understanding of the aforementioned
writings.
As Society changes so do their religious needs, opening the door to
new and improved interpretations of the bible, thus creating new denominations or sects. The only constant being the hope of getting chosen to spend eternity in the ever elusive heaven.
In my opinion, if a god existed as described by all Christians this
confusion would not exist, there would only be one single denomination, but this is not the case. Please explain.
"edited to correct spelling"
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
Edited by - rickm on 09/13/2003 09:40:22
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 11:07:13 [Permalink]
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Rick, thanks for starting this up.
Having never had much of any religious indoctrination, I am often amazed and sometimes appalled at the behavior of believers toward each other. Sometimes it almost seems like a schoolyard game of: my version of the Supreme Being can whup yours!
I think that one must go back in history to the founding of the Christian Church to understand it's evolution into what it/they are today. I was going to do this, but I've been hit with the flu (life sucks; I wish I was dead) and don't feel up to doing a proper job of it. But here's a site that might inspire someone else to get into it:
quote:
The New Testament and most Christian Beliefs weren't codified until after the conversion of Constantine. Because of the confusing and conflicting variety of teachings, Constantine started the system of Church Councils that eventually lead to the "standardization" of Christianity. It was during these Councils that decisions were made regarding which scripture was "Canon" and what beliefs were true (and which were false). This process took several hundred years.
http://www.treefort.org/~rgrogan/web/ce.htm
A little more: in modern times, it seems as if new cults pop up almost weekly. Most are little more than a collection of people, many a bit unbalanced (to put it kindly), that get together to rant at the rest of us. Most soon fall apart and some few self-destruct in hideous ways -- Jonestown comes to mind. And of course, many are mere rip-offs of the deluded. But a select few, like the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witness, have garnered staying power and seem to be here for the long haul, and the history(s) of this precious pair is a fascinating read.
What makes me wonder about the ethics and morality of the whole thing is the treatment given to other believers by fundamentalists in the various sects. Even today, in our ‘enlightened' times there are those who would happily stone me and thee to death (and what with the flu, that would be a relief). Which shows that little has changed over the centuries.
The following site is not one to be gleaned by the faint of stomach. It rather ghoulishly concentrates on various punishments meted out to the heretic, but still has some good historical background.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Religious%20atrocities.htm
One might say, “Well, those were Catholics. It's to be expected!” But the Protestant inquisitions were fully as bloody.
That's all I got. If I'm still alive later, maybe I'll come up with a little more. Now, it's time for a big glass of cheap whisky and a nap.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2003 : 15:28:01 [Permalink]
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In case some of the newer members have not looked back in the older Religion Topics, Slater explained it quite well in this thread, regarding Constantine's involvement in the fabrication of Christianity.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=62&whichpage=1
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 08:28:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
Constantine's involvement in the fabrication of Christianity.
One faith-based fairy-tale meets another.  |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 10:42:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by rickm
Constantine's involvement in the fabrication of Christianity.
One faith-based fairy-tale meets another.
He did not directly fabricate Christianity, but his involvement populurized it and made it legal to be a Christian.
As self proclaimed protector of the church, his involvement at the councils of Arles, and Nicaea, Constantine had considerable influence in deciding church doctrine.
Thus through Constantine's involvement, Christian doctrine was legislated through the empire, by doing this he diluted it with confused and incincere converts.
Some say that Constantine's conversion to Christianity was Genuine, and some say it was purely political. I personally have not delved into it far enough to say what his motivation may have been.
I always found it curious that it became popular througout the Roman empire but dwindled away to nothing in the place of origin. I would think that, had it had any kind of validity to it, it would have remained the main religion practised in the region from whence the supposed Jesus character had originated.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 14:17:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by rickm
Constantine's involvement in the fabrication of Christianity.
One faith-based fairy-tale meets another.
He did not directly fabricate Christianity, but ...
Forgive me, but I really despise weasel-worded assertions constructed to insure maximum wiggle-room. I have absolutely no doubt, for example, that you "did not directly" abuse children. So, is it your position that Constantine indirectly fabricated Christianity and, if so, what is your view of the Ante-Nicene Church? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2003 : 18:23:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Forgive me, but I really despise weasel-worded assertions constructed to insure maximum wiggle-room. I have absolutely no doubt, for example, that you "did not directly" abuse children. So, is it your position that Constantine indirectly fabricated Christianity and, if so, what is your view of the Ante-Nicene Church?
After reading a chapter of a book I have had for some time, I realize I may have been shooting my mouth off for nothing. However I feel condescending remarks will not further this exchange either. If you have knowledge or information contrary to mine, by all means please present it.
What I have read on early church fathers starting with Clement:
(1)"(?150 - ?215) CE Was an outstanding figure who sought to give Christianity a philosophical interpretation while remaining faithful to the apostolic tradition and the revelation in the Old Testament and in Christ. He's willing to concede to the Gnostics that gnossis was the true end of man, but perfection that one attained only through accepting Christ as guide and baptism as prerequisite."
Origen (?180-253/4) being a pupil of clement's.
"Origen also believed in angelic hierarchy . He even ascrived souls to the stars, a theory implicit in the astrology of the times and therefore firmly repudiated by the orthodox. He believed that thought their exercise of free will, some of the angels, headed by Satan turned to the hierarchy of the cosmos was determined by one's choices. Beyond the grave men had the chance of further modes of life as demons or angels, and eventually they would attain salvation. Salvation would come in a final consummation in which all spirtis, even the Devil would be saved."
The author goes on to say that the increasing success of the faith was sufficently alarming by the middle of the third century. Which happens to precede Constantine, contrary to my previous statements.
Constantine is however mentioned as being an early church father, and aided the cause by trying to unite a divided Church.
"Most important of all he himself intervened in the disputes which were dividing the Church from within. He believed that a peaceful and united Church was essential to express the religion of a unified Empire."
From what I have read it does appear that Constantine did have a signigicant impact on Christianity, albeit not the fabricator. If you have anything to add please do.
The book is titled "The Religious Experience" by Ninian Smart. The book is a non religious book that defines early religion not only Christianity but covers all the major religions world wide.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2003 : 03:04:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Forgive me, but I really despise weasel-worded assertions constructed to insure maximum wiggle-room. I have absolutely no doubt, for example, that you "did not directly" abuse children. So, is it your position that Constantine indirectly fabricated Christianity and, if so, what is your view of the Ante-Nicene Church?
From what I have read it does appear that Constantine did have a signigicant impact on Christianity, albeit not the fabricator. If you have anything to add please do.
Thanks. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2003 : 09:25:40 [Permalink]
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STEP RIGHT UP! STEP RIGHT UP! Come and play the game that is sure to amaze and intrique you. It's called pick the right religion. If you pick the right one you receive EVERLASTING JOY. If you pick the wrong one you will be TORMENTED IN A BURNING PIT FOREVER.
You got Catholic, you got your Baptist, you got your Moslem ya even got your Hindu. Step right up and spin the big wheel.
You don't want to play - Well then sonny jim you automatically go to hell. You got to play or your gonna pay.
You got better than a 1 - 100 chance, so come on and give the wheel a spin!!
Why would I do this you ask? - Well my boy, I guess I just work in mysterious ways. ... STEP RIGHT UP!! |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2003 : 09:45:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
I always found it curious that it became popular througout the Roman empire but dwindled away to nothing in the place of origin. I would think that, had it had any kind of validity to it, it would have remained the main religion practised in the region from whence the supposed Jesus character had originated.
The Islamic conquest of the Middle East in 630-640 CE kinda put the kibosh on Christian evolution and expansion in that area. Christians and Jews were not persecuted, but they paid a much higher tax rate, which discouraged conversion into those religions and this hampered growth. Conquest also eliminated much of the argument over which patriarchate had primacy - Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, or Rome (Damascus too??, I forget). The elder two got cut off from the politics and left it a two way argument between Constantinople and Rome.
You did get all sorts of interesting alternate sects in the Middle East that did not get cleaned up as they did in the Byzantine and Roman areas. The Arian heresy (IIRC) evolved into Nestorian Christianity and there was even a group that revered John the Baptist and declared Jesus to be a fraud. The Chaldean Christians in Iraq are one of these offshoot groups.
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- TW
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